Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Parents
Former Member
Wayne: I like the humorous signature. We'll have to agree to disagree on some things.
I don't think that Anthony Ervin is a bad example at all. After reviewing turn 3 (the close-up turn on ESPN) in the 100 at NCAAs, he had a tight streamline and was up and swimming at the 5 yard mark. And a VERY fast turn. I think more age group swimmers would benefit from being told to get up and swim instead of kicking in a tight streamline for 8 yards. Most high school and younger swimmers do not have the leg strength necessary to kick faster than they can swim. I will not disagree with your view of the start.
Mattson... I can appreciate your viewpoints. Discussion and disagreements are the only thing that keeps us looking to improve our coaching methods and learn more and more. If we all agreed we'd be stuck with what we have forever. I'm not so sure TI was as radical when it came out as you say, but it was clearly a change. More in philosphy and teaching method and glitzy marketing than anything but I digress :D
I agree with Phil here in that I would like to see highly qualified individuals addressing some of the questions and concerns we have with TI. Maybe by a non-biased person?
I'm going to add something to the SL/SR discussion as well. A while back I think it was Emmett who gave this analogy, try to swim down the pool taking as many strokes as possible, like 100 strokes. You will get a slower and slower 25y time as you do that. I remember I responded that the particular example was to the level of absurdity. For all the SL proponents, try to swim down the pool with 2 strokes. It will take you all day. Absurd as well, but no more than the other example.
What it boils down to, is a good coach will find the point at which the individual swimmer has best maximized the potential of the combination of their SR and SL. Clearly Ervin is fastest for himself taking 16 strokes in a length at quite a rapid turnover. Klete Keller on the other hand will take 12-13 SPL. That works best for him. Everyone can't be lumped into the same mold. Watching Brooke Bennett and Diana Munz swim next to each other at the 2000 games, they were so radically different in their strokes but for all intents are swimmers of equal caliber. (In fact the winner, Bennett, had higher SR, lower SL, and greater SPL!)
I feel like a broken record now, but my main issues are don't treat one teaching ideology as gospel, using it only, and grouping all the swimmers into it. Every swimmer is different. What works for one won't necessarily work for the other. Good coaches will draw on all the resources available to them to offer each swimmer the best training techniques and methods for them personally.
-RM
Certified Level... uhhh... just plain certifiable!
:D
Wayne: I like the humorous signature. We'll have to agree to disagree on some things.
I don't think that Anthony Ervin is a bad example at all. After reviewing turn 3 (the close-up turn on ESPN) in the 100 at NCAAs, he had a tight streamline and was up and swimming at the 5 yard mark. And a VERY fast turn. I think more age group swimmers would benefit from being told to get up and swim instead of kicking in a tight streamline for 8 yards. Most high school and younger swimmers do not have the leg strength necessary to kick faster than they can swim. I will not disagree with your view of the start.
Mattson... I can appreciate your viewpoints. Discussion and disagreements are the only thing that keeps us looking to improve our coaching methods and learn more and more. If we all agreed we'd be stuck with what we have forever. I'm not so sure TI was as radical when it came out as you say, but it was clearly a change. More in philosphy and teaching method and glitzy marketing than anything but I digress :D
I agree with Phil here in that I would like to see highly qualified individuals addressing some of the questions and concerns we have with TI. Maybe by a non-biased person?
I'm going to add something to the SL/SR discussion as well. A while back I think it was Emmett who gave this analogy, try to swim down the pool taking as many strokes as possible, like 100 strokes. You will get a slower and slower 25y time as you do that. I remember I responded that the particular example was to the level of absurdity. For all the SL proponents, try to swim down the pool with 2 strokes. It will take you all day. Absurd as well, but no more than the other example.
What it boils down to, is a good coach will find the point at which the individual swimmer has best maximized the potential of the combination of their SR and SL. Clearly Ervin is fastest for himself taking 16 strokes in a length at quite a rapid turnover. Klete Keller on the other hand will take 12-13 SPL. That works best for him. Everyone can't be lumped into the same mold. Watching Brooke Bennett and Diana Munz swim next to each other at the 2000 games, they were so radically different in their strokes but for all intents are swimmers of equal caliber. (In fact the winner, Bennett, had higher SR, lower SL, and greater SPL!)
I feel like a broken record now, but my main issues are don't treat one teaching ideology as gospel, using it only, and grouping all the swimmers into it. Every swimmer is different. What works for one won't necessarily work for the other. Good coaches will draw on all the resources available to them to offer each swimmer the best training techniques and methods for them personally.
-RM
Certified Level... uhhh... just plain certifiable!
:D
