Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Parents
Former Member
I disagree with:
Originally posted by mattson
...
Don't use a freak-of-nature talent who doesn't use TI as an example, unless they tried TI and went slower.
...
Total Immersion (TI) writes in page 47:
"FQS (i.e.: Front Quadrant Swimming) swimming means always keeping one or the other of your hands in that quadrant." and
"Leaving each in place just a split-second extra can make a big difference in your Froude number.".
(i.e.: Froude numbers are vessel numbers analogous to swimmers who swim 'taller' by keeping one hand in front that "...split-second extra...").
Keeping one hand that "...slpit-second extra...", means a pause after the arm entry into the water, during the catch of the water.
This pause makes for a lower arm turnover rate.
Velocity is length multiplied by rate.
The question is: if rate lowers due to the pause, is length more than compensating it, so that velocity increases?
My input in this thread, the example of Anthony Ervin in this thread, hundreds of swimmers reported in this thread, Bill White and others' input in the thread 'TI advice: stroke length vs rate', say:
no.
These inputs are already posted by now.
They can be read and re-read.
I reinforce my existing input with:
August 15 in Cleveland, I swam 800 meter free, a lifetime second slowest, faster than only one single instance when I swam it in the year 2000 on painkillers for my back. Two fast-twitch observers, Ian Smith and Jim Thornton said to me afterwards that I have too much TI in me, and that a faster turnover rate is recommended.
In general, I found the book Total Immersion to be written with a marketing behavior in it, as in superficial sales pitches.
This is opposed to more profound data from another book which also attempts to explain swimming, but better.
The sections discrediting cross training benefits of kicking with a board, pulling with paddles, dry land training -for example on an inclined bench-, are naive.
In conclusion:
this thread has plenty of "...tried TI and went slower.", and another thread -'TI advice: stroke length vs rate' by Bill White-, is 100% of "...tried TI and went slower."
I disagree with:
Originally posted by mattson
...
Don't use a freak-of-nature talent who doesn't use TI as an example, unless they tried TI and went slower.
...
Total Immersion (TI) writes in page 47:
"FQS (i.e.: Front Quadrant Swimming) swimming means always keeping one or the other of your hands in that quadrant." and
"Leaving each in place just a split-second extra can make a big difference in your Froude number.".
(i.e.: Froude numbers are vessel numbers analogous to swimmers who swim 'taller' by keeping one hand in front that "...split-second extra...").
Keeping one hand that "...slpit-second extra...", means a pause after the arm entry into the water, during the catch of the water.
This pause makes for a lower arm turnover rate.
Velocity is length multiplied by rate.
The question is: if rate lowers due to the pause, is length more than compensating it, so that velocity increases?
My input in this thread, the example of Anthony Ervin in this thread, hundreds of swimmers reported in this thread, Bill White and others' input in the thread 'TI advice: stroke length vs rate', say:
no.
These inputs are already posted by now.
They can be read and re-read.
I reinforce my existing input with:
August 15 in Cleveland, I swam 800 meter free, a lifetime second slowest, faster than only one single instance when I swam it in the year 2000 on painkillers for my back. Two fast-twitch observers, Ian Smith and Jim Thornton said to me afterwards that I have too much TI in me, and that a faster turnover rate is recommended.
In general, I found the book Total Immersion to be written with a marketing behavior in it, as in superficial sales pitches.
This is opposed to more profound data from another book which also attempts to explain swimming, but better.
The sections discrediting cross training benefits of kicking with a board, pulling with paddles, dry land training -for example on an inclined bench-, are naive.
In conclusion:
this thread has plenty of "...tried TI and went slower.", and another thread -'TI advice: stroke length vs rate' by Bill White-, is 100% of "...tried TI and went slower."
