Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Parents
Former Member
I normally try very hard NOT to comment or reply to Fast ION, but when ION starts analyzing coaching I CAN'T take it any more.
It is painfully obvious to all of us, that with your late start in swimming, you missed the coordination and muscle memory that swimmers at younger ages get through years of both training correctly, and many many drill sets.
It is also obvious to all that over training will not get you faster; in fact you are probably training in the high aerobic threshold or anaerobic heart rate zones too much per week. You will never taper properly if you are over training.
You somehow equate a FRECH coach’s ability to get an extremely talented swimmer to the Olympics. From what I have seen, both the English and French coaches have neglected technique badly, and that is the reason the Russians and Italians have done so well in the last four Olympics. There have not been a whole lot of French Olympic Swimming Champions in the last 90 years.
I feel that many of the Russian, Australian, and Italian swimmers now have better turns and technique than even the American swimmers. They race short course World Cup races with lots of money at stake.
I can’t believe the jealousy in the swimming community over the TI coaching methods. I always say beware of the coach who knows it all. The great coaches are always learning. Over the last 40 years, I though I knew how to coach breaststroke and fly, but after watching one videotape on short axis strokes, I immediately adopted the TI methods. Yes, many other coaches have taught the same drills, in fact the reason I adopted the TI methods was during a UCLA masters swim meet, my friend and great coach Gerry Rodrigues had some Olympians swim some exhibition swims for us. When you see these people doing the EXACT same drills as TI coaches before they race, it makes a lifetime impression.
And your comment on kick boards is so far off base; just because one elite swimmer uses kick boards do not make it right. Most coaches will tell you that for every inch hour head is up above the ideal position, your legs will sink two inches. Practicing with BAD form will mean you will compete with BAD form. Most Masters coaches allow kicking with boards for one reason; it is the social, non-productive part of the workout.
I have spent the last three years taking the ASCA courses, and one thing stands out. Dara Torres coach said it best, “We don’t swim take way more” during her come back. What any coach learned by swimming, class work, or coaching during the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s is not how swimming technique is taught now.
Fast Ion, just for our peace of mind, who do you normally swim for in San Diego?
I agree with much of what Philip says, except “One should be careful of saying that 'they could be so much better if they only . . .' Who are we kidding? They are already the best in the world. “
I reviewed every Olympic tape for the last twenty years, and it is painful to watch some of the stroke and technique errors in Olympians. Watch the “Ultimate Breaststroke” video, An Olympic Champion making serious errors, then watch technicians like Mike Barrowman, with almost zero errors. One reason his time has stood for ten years. Watch the American freestyle sprinter loose the 1996 50 and 100 races because he looks up at the wall touch, instead of looking down and driving the hand through the touch pad. He also did not do the 2—3 dolphin kicks off the start that the Russian did. Now fast forward to 2000, he wins the 50 free (tie) beating the Russian by finishing correctly this time.
Ion, isn’t the pitch from TI “sales pitch intended for middle-aged master swimmers” just fitting you perfectly? If you ever get a chance to take a TI course from Emmett, or Michael Collins (Irvine CA) you would probably spend the days telling the coaches how wrong they are, but I would bet you would swim MUCH faster, and your tune would change.
Coach Wayne McCauley
ASCA Level 4 Masters (soon to be 5)
I normally try very hard NOT to comment or reply to Fast ION, but when ION starts analyzing coaching I CAN'T take it any more.
It is painfully obvious to all of us, that with your late start in swimming, you missed the coordination and muscle memory that swimmers at younger ages get through years of both training correctly, and many many drill sets.
It is also obvious to all that over training will not get you faster; in fact you are probably training in the high aerobic threshold or anaerobic heart rate zones too much per week. You will never taper properly if you are over training.
You somehow equate a FRECH coach’s ability to get an extremely talented swimmer to the Olympics. From what I have seen, both the English and French coaches have neglected technique badly, and that is the reason the Russians and Italians have done so well in the last four Olympics. There have not been a whole lot of French Olympic Swimming Champions in the last 90 years.
I feel that many of the Russian, Australian, and Italian swimmers now have better turns and technique than even the American swimmers. They race short course World Cup races with lots of money at stake.
I can’t believe the jealousy in the swimming community over the TI coaching methods. I always say beware of the coach who knows it all. The great coaches are always learning. Over the last 40 years, I though I knew how to coach breaststroke and fly, but after watching one videotape on short axis strokes, I immediately adopted the TI methods. Yes, many other coaches have taught the same drills, in fact the reason I adopted the TI methods was during a UCLA masters swim meet, my friend and great coach Gerry Rodrigues had some Olympians swim some exhibition swims for us. When you see these people doing the EXACT same drills as TI coaches before they race, it makes a lifetime impression.
And your comment on kick boards is so far off base; just because one elite swimmer uses kick boards do not make it right. Most coaches will tell you that for every inch hour head is up above the ideal position, your legs will sink two inches. Practicing with BAD form will mean you will compete with BAD form. Most Masters coaches allow kicking with boards for one reason; it is the social, non-productive part of the workout.
I have spent the last three years taking the ASCA courses, and one thing stands out. Dara Torres coach said it best, “We don’t swim take way more” during her come back. What any coach learned by swimming, class work, or coaching during the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s is not how swimming technique is taught now.
Fast Ion, just for our peace of mind, who do you normally swim for in San Diego?
I agree with much of what Philip says, except “One should be careful of saying that 'they could be so much better if they only . . .' Who are we kidding? They are already the best in the world. “
I reviewed every Olympic tape for the last twenty years, and it is painful to watch some of the stroke and technique errors in Olympians. Watch the “Ultimate Breaststroke” video, An Olympic Champion making serious errors, then watch technicians like Mike Barrowman, with almost zero errors. One reason his time has stood for ten years. Watch the American freestyle sprinter loose the 1996 50 and 100 races because he looks up at the wall touch, instead of looking down and driving the hand through the touch pad. He also did not do the 2—3 dolphin kicks off the start that the Russian did. Now fast forward to 2000, he wins the 50 free (tie) beating the Russian by finishing correctly this time.
Ion, isn’t the pitch from TI “sales pitch intended for middle-aged master swimmers” just fitting you perfectly? If you ever get a chance to take a TI course from Emmett, or Michael Collins (Irvine CA) you would probably spend the days telling the coaches how wrong they are, but I would bet you would swim MUCH faster, and your tune would change.
Coach Wayne McCauley
ASCA Level 4 Masters (soon to be 5)
