Medical Question to a Doctor regarding Supplements.

Originally posted by emmett Ion: Consider hiring the coach for one-on-one consultation outside of the scheduled practice time. In addition to this dedicated attention, you might find that you get a bit more of his/her attention during group practices. Yes, Emmett. Regarding the need for technique improvement, people keep in mind that this thread considers the same technique over the years, physical decline, and how supplements could possibly stop the physical decline. However, not considering the same technique, brings us to the need for technical improvement, indeed. From this point of view, it's a fact that perceived qualities and defects to somebody, are different than perceived qualities and defects to somebody else. For example, when pondering Phil's post about swimmers who enter the water with bent arms, stretch the arms and shoulders under water, then pull, I started thinking that Australian swimmers, and Janet Evans (US) do swim with straight arms like I do. It is faster to stretch the arm in the air, than under water. When I started swimming by myself in France in 1984, I was told that I swim like Xavier Savin (Fra) who went to the Olympics in 1980 and 1984, and who would stretch the arms in the air, then slap the water. Also, last week in Hawaii, when I got out of the water after 100 free, Phil told me that I overkick. However, two on-deck coaches in Hawaii praised me for a strong kick. I think it is a wimpiness in US Masters Swimming, the way people neglect kicking in practice. In a warm up in Hawaii, I saw Paul (I mean Paul Smith) do a 25 yards sprint, foot-touch in 10.4 seconds and taking 9 strokes. The best I got there, was 12.00 seconds, hand-touch and taking 15 strokes. Somebody not as tall as Paul, but of my height, did 10.5 seconds, hand-touch and with 13 strokes. Looks like I can use some Distance per Stroke improvement. An on-deck coach from Atlanta, told me I have a very good kick, but I need to work on hip rotation, as opposed to just a upper chest rotation now, thus get more Distance per Stroke. I think I have in mind three possible coaches here, I can inquire with.

Ion: Consider hiring the coach for one-on-one consultation outside of the scheduled practice time. In addition to this dedicated attention, you might find that you get a bit more of his/her attention during group practices.

Ion, listen to your coaches and use your best judgement on what needs improvement in your stroke. I have nothing against strong kicks, and have one myself. What *I* saw was that when you were tired your legs spread too far apart. That is, you were doing what Emmett discussed in another thread:and kicking outside the tube the rest of your body is swimming through. But I only watched you swim one event, and my memory is that your stroke got worse when you were tired. Us old-time Red Cross Swimming instructors know of a stroke called 'trudgeon crawl' which uses a scissors kick (I don't know if it is still taught); it is a pleasant stroke to swim easy, but not so good if you want to swim fast. Your stroke isn't that bad, but I did think about it when I watched you swim your last lap. A strong kick is good, but as Emmett says, a strong kick that serves mainly to keep your body in a reasonably level position uses up a lot of excess energy, as does a kick that strays into what should be still water. The last time I swam a 200 back, my legs started to get tired on the fourth length. There was no way I could continue to swim the way I was for another four, so I reduced the intensity of my kick and worked on my body position to lift my hips. My legs felt less tired at the end, and I still did my best masters time. A humbling test, which I don't pass, is to swim with your feet tied together and no floatation device. I do it with by toes interlocked. Pretty soon my feet are two feet under. If that happens you know at least part of your kick is serving to maintain body position. Also, something I try to remember kicking off the wall: small and fast, not big and strong. We want to be in 'fifth gear,' not 'first.'

After reading many times opinions here about supplements that could prevent aging, like Human Growth Hormone precursors, I decided for the status quo, meaning that like up until now if I cannot stop slowing down, so be it. Supplements should work under medical supervision like the one described in the San Francisco Chronicle in the year 2000, which two US Olympic swimmers were benefitting from, and which would satisfy me like driving a Ferrari would. For lack of it however, I would wait for whatever the FDA would approve of them in the future. Originally posted by Philip Arcuni ... my memory is that your stroke got worse when you were tired. ... Your stroke isn't that bad, but I did think about it when I watched you swim your last lap. ... My splits in the 100 free were 28.47 in the first 50 and 31.27 in the second 50, for a total of 59.74. The second 50 was much slower than my second 50 of last year, and it felt painfully hurting. Originally posted by Philip Arcuni ... A strong kick is good, but as Emmett says, a strong kick that serves mainly to keep your body in a reasonably level position uses up a lot of excess energy, as does a kick that strays into what should be still water. ... Yes. I can improve a little on this with better taper resting as it is now, but my entire style and strategy needs an overhaul. If I just could find an attentive good coach, in par with how much individual effort I put...

Ion, YOu may remember a discussion on the old USMS forum about changes in times with advancing age. THis was a very lively topic, and it culminated in the posting on the web of a time converter--you put in time X for your current age, and it will give you equivalent times for when you are older and younger. I agree with you that it's always nice to feel you're improving, and to some extent I think you can keep doing so--up to a point. Eventually, however, age will take its toll. You might find this site fun to check out. It's maybe not the most accurate in the world, but it does show that you may sometimes be "improving" even as your times get worse. http://n3times.com/swimtimes/ Check it out! Jim

Originally posted by Rain Man ... At our level of swimming, dropping two seconds means you get to swim in heat 6 instead of heat 5 - and the top 4 heats are still going to crush you! ... At the top level, there is so much more to gain by improving 2 seconds. National/World championship titles, sponsors, press recognition, fame, money... Let them have it. Enjoy our level of swimming and keep it clean. Their level is dirty, money-driven, under suspicion, political... that's not (at least I hope) what we are involved in swimming for. Respectfully, Rain Man Something that I don't seem to have conveyed accross yet, Rain Man and Matt, is that I swim for the inner power of personal performance, not the outer power of social rewards. From this point of view, I am jealous of the lucky young man I used to be, when from 1984 when I was learning to swim, until mid-1996 when I last competed well, I was conquering, through progress, new heights of achievement. A song I am listening to, 'Conquistador', that's my cockiness. Swimming slower is boring, and swimming faster is fun. Achieving progress against decline from aging, that should be feasible, I haven't tried it, but from newspapers it is reportedly working. I speculate that many of today's supplements will be adopted in people's diets in say the year 2060, like vitamin C is now. Not knowing which ones will be that good, and after considering posts in this thread recommending caution and a safer healthy lifestyle, I decide that I am not willing to make my own body a stranger to myself by experimenting alterations. I decide in favor of living like I am now, decline be damned, while seeing what products FDA will approve as positive products without side effects.

Thanks, Jim. I remember when what to expect in performance while aging takes place, was discussed in the old forum a year ago. I reviewed it quickly now. One year ago, I was scanning through it, thinking it's not for me. I will study it better now. Regarding the chart of times over the years, it shows my fastest theoretical times at age 19. I say theoretical because I learned at 25, I wasn't swimming at 19. At 19, my theoretical times from extrapolation of how I swim now, would still not be impressive even when thrown in my current men 40 to 44 years old age group. I think, starting earlier than 25 would have made me faster at 19 and subsequently now at 43. Also, when comparing my times at age 37 projected from what I do now at 43, with what I effectively did at age 37, the projected times at age 37 are worse. This tells me that what I do now now at 43 can be better.

Ion, I checked out the conversion table that Jim supplied. Remember he said it may not be the most accurate. Exactly. I noticed after a few sample extrapolations that the converter automatically assumes your fastest times are at the age of 19. We know that at least on the men's side, your fastest swimming can be performed anywhere from 16 to 30+. Take it with a grain of salt. It was fun to check out once or twice, but certainly don't bind youself to what you saw. The guys on my masters team that compete wipe their slate clean each season and try to better their times as they progress from meet #1 to zones or nationals. If they happen to beat their ACTUAL best time, that's great, but they are more than satisfied with a season best. As you get older that is what will happen. In order to enjoy the sport, you can't get too hung up on trying to perform like you could 10 years ago. -Rain Man

Ion: Remember where this started--the best way to improve for any swimmer, and I think it is even more true for later beginners is to work on your technique. Second point--if you are getting frustrated with your lack of progress in one or two events, try something different. Do the La Jolla Rough Water, the Maui Channel Relay, a postal event, attend the LCM nationals instead of the SCY nationals, try the 200 back or the 1000 free at whatever meet you do attend. One of the great advantages of Masters swimming over age group is the variety of opportunities for competition. I base the advice to try something different rather than obsessing over a single event or two on my own experience. I swam the flys in college, and then did not do them in a meet that mattered to me, for over 20 years. I've been swimming, but doing different events and different competitions. I enjoyed those and had a sense of accomplishment and improvement. I finally have enough distance between my old college self and my new less improved self that I am trying the fly events again and can be comfortable with not meeting my old goals. But trying to advance in the IMs or whatever you try will give you a chance to set goals, see improvement and enjoy competition. You may find that if you try other events and strokes that you will see improvement in your freestyle events also--many swimmers overspecialize and don't do other strokes enough. But most importantly, you may find that you cheat entropy, and remind yourself of your earlier days of significant improvements.

Ion, Three thoughts: (1) thanks for having the courage to ask a serious question on a subject that can draw a lot of fire. I'm sure in the back of our minds many of us have wondered to ourselves the kind of things you asked openly in this public forum. You did a good job of setting up this issue for the kind of serious and thoughtful responses we have seen for the other participants. Thanks to all; this is an example of the kind of discussion thread we should all aspire to acheive. (2) I have been pondering a response to the email you sent me a few days ago. I will get back to you privately on some of the issues others have raised here, but I do think Emmett and Tall Paul may be on to something. (3) My attitude on others' use of chemistry to enhance their swimming (based on my individual goals and my approach to my own swimming) is that I think they are fools, but I really don't care if they "beat" me by these methods. I'm in this game for general fitness and to see how fast I can swim. Altough I LOVE to race and there are times and circumstances when I can be a shameless medal hound, I don't make a goal of acheiving a particular place at a particular meet. (In part it's because any meet where I make the top 3 does not usuall have a particularly good field of swimmers. I'm reminded of the Groucho Marx line of not wanting to join any club that would have me as a member, but I digress...) Other swimmers have different goals, and I don't want to dismiss how cheating may affect them. But for me, so what? Someone takes a steroid and he dusted me. Does he feel like he has acheived anything? 30 years from now when my swimming has kept me hale and hearty and still competing, will he even still be ALIVE in light of the damage steroid use can cause to his health? In his dialogues Plato argued that honesty is its own reward. That is how I feel about using drugs to swim faster. Matt