Hello, swimmers! I'm barely a real swimmer... I come from a running background (middle distance, mostly, and a bunch of post-college 5ks) and a series of injuries forced me into the pool. I actually couldn't swim at all until 2013, but seemed to improve fairly quickly (at freestyle).
So here's my question. Can I keep improving without doing super-long swims?
I do not seem to recover or cope well with long swims. I've gone up to 3500 yards in a single workout (took almost an hour), but it basically wipes me out and I don't think I'm good enough at form to keep good form for the whole swim. But when I reduce my workout volume to 1800-2800 yards per workout (but lots of hard sets that a great triathlon coach writes for me) and swim 6 times per week, I do improve! I've brought my 100 yard time from 1:31 down to 1:21 in the past few months and my 500 from 8:00ish, to 7:28. I already have good muscle strength and aerobic fitness from all the lifting and training I did for running so I think mostly it's my form that holds me back in the swim.
So should I keep swimming shorter swims and wait for form to smooth out? Or should I push the distance (maybe even just once a week?). Will I EVER feel good going long?
One of the issues I have is that my health isn't great . I have an eating disorder history and tend to underfuel and that may be an issue too, though I'm doing much better now and am at a very healthy weight. I feel like my body is kind of exhausted, and while I like swimming, I want to get better at it without overexercising.
Also, how do I do a darn flip turn?? I feel like my times would drop if I could do one, but as is, I'm so clumsy at it that they slow me down.
Thanks, everyone. I hope to make swimming 'my' sport, even though I only began in my 20s and would love some input.
Yes, you can certainly improve without mega yardage. In fact, there's a big movement to do higher quality and shorter yardage workouts. I suggest you go with what feels comfortable now. During those workouts focus on smoothing out your stroke and trying to maximize your distance per stroke. As you become more efficient the workouts will get easier. Plus, you need to be in it for the long haul so you need to make sure you enjoy it.
Flip turns... use your hands to throw the water over your head. Most new swimmers make big round loops out to the side to get flipped over. Make sure you are not doing it. The hands need to catch the water and throw it over your head. This helps get the hips over. Try it away from the wall first and then move into the wall when you get comfortable. Good Luck.
What are your goals.If you want to swim longer open water or postal swims(5-10K) you are probably going to benefit from longer swims.If you are aiming for shorter races then long swims can be counterproductive. Also,in swimming,technique trumps conditioning every time.If you can find a Masters program with a coach you like,that would be ideal.Next best would be get with someone knowledgeable to help look at your stroke and turns.5 min with someone who knows what they are doing will help your flip more than any descriptions.You can also post a video and let us make suggestions.One of our forumites,swimspire,has a website for helping people with technique(for a fee,of course.)http://www.swimspire.com
I absolutely agree with Allen (an authority on this forum and a highly accomplished swimmer as well!). Swimming is often considered to be a sport that is injury-free and low-impact, but you simply have to take a look at the many threads on this forum about shoulder injuries to know that this is not necessarily true! Runnerskick, there are unfortunately no short cuts when it comes to improving your swimming. Your form usually doesn't just "smooth out" on its own and if you develop bad habits now, they will be very difficult to break as you progress. As a new swimmer, this is the time to build your technical foundation and at this point, technique should be as important as conditioning for you (indeed, many drills function as conditioning exercises in addition to helping improving your stroke!). Also, as I mentioned on a previous thread, you need to go into this with patience and without rushing things so that you avoid injuries and also keep a broader perspective on your progress.
For the flip turns, here is a good video sequence you can try. From the first video, you can link to the next three clips in the sequence. Be sure to do these in the deep end of the pool!
www.youtube.com/watch
Hope this helps! Good luck!
Technique is important too. I would recommend getting a coach or instructor to watch your stroke and see if there are things you could change to be more efficient. It would be a good investment!
Can I keep improving without doing super-long swims?
Yes. Consistent with the advice above, that form rules in swimming, I'll suggest exactly the opposite: The better path to improvement is to do super-short swims!
Specifically, swim one length at a time, and count the number of strokes it takes to finish the length. Stroke count is a rough, first-approximation proxy for efficiency. Try to feel as smooth as possible as you're moving through the water. If your body position is better, and you're encountering less resistance, it will take less effort (fewer strokes) to go a certain distance. Rest a few seconds at the end of the length, and do it again. The point is not to make yourself tired. Exactly the opposite. The point is to avoid water resistance, and finish the length with less effort.
When I'm working on form (particularly in breaststroke, though that's a long story), I always count the number strokes per length (at a certain speed, or level of effort). When it's only about form, when form is the main focus, I never swim more than 50 yards at a time.
Good luck!
hello,
your title asked,
"Is swimming very high volume the only way to get better?"
NO, there are many ways to get better.
you said you're "barely a real swimmer & come from a middle distance running background then injuries forced you into the pool. You couldn't swim at all until 2013, but seemed to improve fairly quickly (at freestyle).
your question: "Can I keep improving without doing super-long swims?"
YES you can
you do not seem to recover or cope well with long swims you've done up to 3500 yards in a single workout (took almost an hour), but it basically wipes you out and
you wrote "I don't think I'm good enough at form to keep good form for the whole swim."
But when I reduce my workout volume to 1800 - 2800 yards per workout
(but lots of hard sets that a great triathlon coach writes for me)
you swim 6 times per week
You've improved,
your 100 yard time started at
1:31 and now you can go 1:21
your 500 from 8:00ish, to 7:28.
You already have good muscle strength and aerobic fitness from all the lifting and training you did when you ran
you wrote: "I think mostly it's my form that holds me back in the swim."
So should you
1) keep swimming shorter swims and wait for form to smooth out? Or
2) push the distance (maybe even just once a week?).
Will I EVER feel good going long?
~~~> Maybe
Health issues:
1) stress fractures from running & an
2) eating disorder history and tend to underfuel and that may be an issue too, though you're doing much better now and are at a very healthy weight.
3) feel exhausted, don't want to over exercise
You asked:
"how do I do a darn flip turn?"
You feel like your times would drop if you could do flip turns.
You kind of answered your own questions.
I assume you're female?
What is your age, sex, height & weight?
What are you training for?
you mentioned a coach, Are you training with a team or with his workouts on your own?
You will continue dropping your 100 time by improving your technique and your swim conditioning!
You must learn how to do flip turns.
The best ways to improve improve your technique are
1) one on one swimming technique training, along with
2) Videos: you need to see what you look like when you're swimming
how you push off & streamline, (you can make huge improvements by just perfecting these 2 things )
how you kick (BTW runners tend to over kick)
how your move your arms (improve your distance per stroke
how you breathe
How you turn
you need before and after videos
BTW what you're doing underwater is way more important than what you do above the water.
It also helps to watch videos of the best in the world and copy their technique.
3) When you complete your one on one technique improvement training the next and greatest challenge is getting these new improvements to STICK.
The way you do this is you focus on 1, 2, or a few replacement habits.
You can't correct technique by thinking about what not to do. You can only correct it by concentrating on the new correct motion and actually doing it over and over and over until it becomes your new habit.
NOW here's the challenge,
the moment you quit concentrating and doing your new habit you'll immediately start doing the motion the way you've always done it.
It's impossible to tell you what you need to correct without seeing you swim.
The best feedback would be at the pool, learning one thing at a time.
2nd best is make videos of you swimming, youtube em and provide us with the links and ask for suggestions.
How long does it take to create a new habit and make it stick?
It takes what it takes.
Next, you must improve your swim conditioning
Swimming long distances with open turns and funky form won't get you where you want to go. If you really want to improve, you must swim faster in practice, you must swim faster times on faster intervals, while you are slowly increasing your yardage. YOu will get used to more yardage and not be as exhausted.
Lastly mix it up, work on everything, sprints, longer sprints, middle distance and longer swims.
You can swim faster faster,
Ande
Wow, thank you all so much for that valuable and thoughtful input. It's good to hear that lower volume is possible, when so many swimmers I know talk about doing 6,000 or 7,000 yards at a pop. I never plan to swim massive distance events, so that's all right. I just want to improve my movement patterns.
I do have the opportunity to work with an in-person swim coach and have done so a couple of times. So far, I've improved # of breaths per lap and figured out bilateral breathing, but my stroke count is still too high (I have been able to take as few as 18 strokes per 25 yards, but as soon as I start going fast, I'm back to 20+, essentially muscling my way through the water). Most of you seem to agree that stroke count is a big deal, so that will be my next focus. I'm doing several drills for that, including catch-up, finger drag, zipper drill, and single-arm drills. Maybe more work will the pull buoy is in order as well.
I'll work on this and schedule another lesson with the in-person coach. Thanks, everyon0e, your input is so appreciated.
I have been able to take as few as 18 strokes per 25 yards, but as soon as I start going fast, I'm back to 20+, essentially muscling my way through the water.
That honestly doesn't sound too bad, especially for someone who only took up swimming in the last couple years. I can do a length of a 25 yard pool in as little as 14 strokes (counting the break-out pull) at a ~1:20/100 pace, but at 500 free "race pace" (1:10/hundred) I start at around 18 and get up to 20 or 21 when fatigued.
FWIW, I took up swimming last year after a 27 year layoff. I had pretty much zero endurance at the beginning. Not only had I not swam for 27 years, I hadn't really worked out for most of that time either. But I did have a reasonable "feel for the water" from all the mileage I swam as a kid/teen so I didn't have the same kind of technique learning curve a newcomer would.
My training has pretty much been only sets of 25's, 50's, and 75's with short rests (USRPT), and my total workouts are typically only 2200-3500 yards. After 6 months of that, 3-5 times a week, I tried a 1.2 mile swim* for time and was able to hold a ~1:20/100 pace to the half way point and then ~1:18/100 on the back half. So I would say no, you don't have to do mega yardage to improve your endurance.
Technique and stroke efficiency matter, but you need conditioning to be able to hold the technique/efficiency together when you fatigue. You can get just as much conditioning, and arguably more, doing short distances at high pace as you can at longer distances but slower pace. If you can do a length in 18 strokes, your technique can't be all that bad. How's your streamline off the wall? When I'm doing a length in 14 strokes, I'm past the flags before I take that first stroke. I'm guessing you probably don't make it that far. That would make your 18 closer to my 14 than the difference might suggest. You always want to be mindful of your technique, but I think you may be ready for more high intensity work within the time/yardage you're already committing to.
*This was an in-pool time trial to give myself a baseline time for an upcoming 1.2 mile open water event.
