Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

Who would monitor a list of, "National Team Members," to ensure that they aren't eligible for USMS records? once TT are finalize you can pull a list of the current NT and go through it. Re participation: you are not excluding anyone from participation with what I proposed. Re your example of Marathons: there is no designated "Masters Marathon" if that were the case, I think people would also think differently about it.

Still waiting on you to tell us your reasons. All you have done so far in this Thread is shoot against other people's opinions. My reasons are irrelevant and unimportant. I coach a huge Masters team and have about a dozen Top Ten swimmers in various age groups and multiple events. None have ever complained about getting smoked by a fast elite swimmer. In fact, all love it when we get the chance to go up against the best. I heard the bell at my 900 on a 1000 once because of a super stud next to me. While my first reaction was despair, I then realized how awesome it was to be beaten by one of the best in the world. I guess my question to you remains unanswered as well. Why do you find faster people than you to be unworthy of records simply because they are faster?

once TT are finalize you can pull a list of the current NT and go through it. There could also be something on the record submission form asking the swimmer to verify that he/she was not on a national team at the time of the swim.

My reasons are irrelevant and unimportant. I coach a huge Masters team and have about a dozen Top Ten swimmers in various age groups and multiple events. None have ever complained about getting smoked by a fast elite swimmer. In fact, all love it when we get the chance to go up against the best. I heard the bell at my 900 on a 1000 once because of a super stud next to me. While my first reaction was despair, I then realized how awesome it was to be beaten by one of the best in the world. I guess my question to you remains unanswered as well. Why do you find faster people than you to be unworthy of records simply because they are faster? I never used the word "unworthy". That's how you interpret my post. All kinds of swimmers should be able to set records and be in TT lists. But if we already have a distinction between USMS and USAS then there should also be a distinction for the records. Faster people than me are definitely welcome to break records and beat me in the TT, heck I wouldn't even care if I weren't in the TT. But, if I see that 1-3 current National Team Members, who compete for much more than USMS TT and records, are on the list, I don't think they should be there. That is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with you somehow coming up with me saying that I find it unworthy or don't like faster people than me. Not sure how you came up with these facts. I never said those! Overall, I swam once next to Maria Moravchova at the World Cup. She set a FINA World Record in the lane right next to me. It was the 100 IM and after the 25 fly I only saw her feet. It was one of the best races I have ever been part of. I still remember it to the day. I don't know what your problem is with me stating my opinion. I don't care, but don't make up stuff that I never said!

once TT are finalize you can pull a list of the current NT and go through it. I see all kinds of problems with this. Take my example of Eugene Godsoe. He made the National Team in 2 events but swam in the same events before he made the National team. Are you expecting every Top Ten Recorder to go thru every meet for swims that he may have had National Records and Top Tens before he made the National Team? What about someone like Davis Tarwater, who did not make the National Team until someone pulled out of the 200 Free? Also because the National Team is selected by event, what about the other events that the swimmer can be eligible for and they may not be Records but could make the Top Ten. Would they be excluded because they made a National Team in one event and would not be eligible in other events? What about other courses such as SCY and SCM, would they be excluded from those as well, once they made the National Team in one event? I agree with Geek here, it sounds like you want to exclude as many swimmers as you can from USMS Records and Top Ten so you can get the USMS Records and Number 1 swims yourself.

here is the obvious reason to NOT have any kind of prevention: what other nation(s) would do this as well? ie prevent brian goodell and mike o'brien, but allow vladimire salnikov? or better yet allow Sun Yang? (well he's 21 now but still could be a usms record) as long as you have no issues with USADA and/or WADA, and are also in good standing with USMS, you get to swim.

But, if I see that 1-3 current National Team Members, who compete for much more than USMS TT and records, are on the list, I don't think they should be there. Could you please name the 1 to 3 current National Team members? Justine Mueller is listed but I don't see any results from any National Team meets. Perhaps she qualified next year. Megan Jendrick is currently not on the list. I see some other swimmers that were listed ahead of you from USA National Meets but they were not National Team members. www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDefault.aspx Overall, I swam once next to Maria Moravchova at the World Cup. She set a FINA World Record in the lane right next to me. It was the 100 IM and after the 25 fly I only saw her feet. It was one of the best races I have ever been part of.I still remember it to the day. You must be talking about Swimming here and not Masters Swimming because I know that FINA World Cup are not sanctioning masters meets even though FINA sanctions them. They are FINA Swimming sanctioned meets. I don't know what this statement has to do with our discussion other than to see YES you are good enough to swim in FINA World Cup meets against the best competition out there. Maria Moravchova has set FINA Masters World Records but not in this instance and swam them in NGB Sanctioned masters meets

Somehow this discussion has morphed from “Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?” into a heated debate about Top 10 and records. Does anyone object to getting back on topic?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you draw you motivation.While I certainly look at the rankings and the records, I won't say that's the main place where I draw my motivation from. For me, Masters swimming has allowed me the opportunity to reacquire my love of competing -- I had it as an age grouper, but kind of lost that in the latter years of my collegiate experience. At that point, qualifying times (e.g., Trials, NCAAs) and competition became very heavy, pressure-filled events for me. I didn't enjoy competing. With Masters, I love racing again. So, what are my motivators? To race - I really, really, really, really LOVE / ENJOY / ADORE racing -- at any time of the year (in shape, out of shape, rested, not rested), in any event, against any type of competitor (e.g., I lost a 50 kick exhibition race to my 10 year old daughter recently and it was a blast), in any type of water (e.g., pool, SCY / SCM / LCM, lake, ocean, ... heck, if there was a race in a Michael Phelps signature swim spa, I'd get psyched). To stay in shape, to rarely visit a doctor and when I do, to have him tell me my blood pressure, lipids, body fat,... any measurement he can take are awesome. Oh yeah, I compete against myself with those blood pressure machines at pharmacies and grocery stores all the time -- trying to see if my latest bout of training has helped. To find ways to beat my younger Masters self -- as noted above, I have no illusions of competing against my 20 year old self, but I'm really looking forward to Santa Clara Nationals next year to compete against my 34 year old self since the 2001 Nationals there was my first Nationals ever as a Masters swimmer. What motivates me -- to kick my own ass from 13 years ago! To race -- did I mention I like racing? I almost think I like racing when I don't win more than when I do ... if the others in the race have pushed to make me faster. A few examples ... Racing Rowdy Gaines in the 100 free at his eponymous meet in 2009. I was right next him. He kicked my ass ... and I swam faster that I could have ever imagined Racing in the same heat of the 400 free as Janet Evans in 2011 when she was working on her preparation for 2012. Yes, she beat me. Handily. Like 6 seconds. Hut, it was still my Masters personal best. The 500 free at Greensboro Nationals (2012) where the entire field of 8 were former Division I competitors of mine, where 4 of us turned at the 450 in a deadheat and where the difference between 1st and 5th ended up being only 3.5 seconds. Oh yeah. I didn't win, but swam my best Masters time ever. A 1500 at a throwaway LCM USAS meet where I ended up in the first heat with some 13 year old and he and I swam neck & neck the whole way, both of us helping the other to push under 18:00 for the first time (well, me, as a Masters swimmer). Yes, that time was almost 2 minutes slower than my collegiate race, but the race was one of the most fun I ever had. Oh yeah, he touched me out at the end. I honestly don't thinking the TT rankings motivate me. I look at them, but they're kind of a crap shoot based upon who got to swim what in what kind of shape each year. As for the records, there are certainly some that motivate me ... until they don't. Am I motivated currently by the 400 IM National records in my age group (45-49) - for sure; they seem within my grasp. If I get one, will it be cool? Absolutely. If I don't, will I lose my motivation? Absolutely not. Am I motivated by the world records for the 400 IM in my age group -- absolutely not. Nicolas Granger of France dropped such sick times in the last year or so that they are, barring some miracle, just not within my reach. Does that fact diminish my motivation? Not at all. Fortunately, I'm motivated enough by all the above that I don't need any additional motivation.

Somehow this discussion has morphed from “Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?” into a heated debate about Top 10 and records. Does anyone object to getting back on topic?Actually, I think the TT & record discussion is precisely on topic because this seems to be what people are objecting to when it comes to 'elites' competing in Masters. The point of view (not mine) seems to be that they can compete, but their times shouldn't be 'allowed' for TT or records.