Though this topic has received some attention in various threads over the years, it is the dead of winter, and I think that those of us in the Northeast, at least, could do with a little blood boiling to warm up the extremities!
To this end, I am wondering how many of my fellow swimmers have had swim times disallowed ex post facto in USMS sanctioned meets, and if so, for what reason?
As some of you who read my blog may recall, I have had a number of TT-worthy times disallowed for various reasons over the years, ranging from lack of timeliness in submitting the paperwork, to swimming a couple races in the "Open" category.
Recently, I have had my first and only All American swim retroactively yanked, some five weeks after the Top 10 list was officially published. Obviously, this is not as bad as those unfortunate souls who have had World Records declared ineligible for consideration.
Nevertheless, it does sting. I invite you to read the details of my De-All'ing (from my perspective) here: byjimthornton.com/.../
Note: I do not question the right of USMS to have rules more stringent than USA-S and FINA. What I do believe is unfair to us swimmers is when these rules apply to us but not to those in charge of making sure that all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed when they secure sanctions for meets and collect the meet fees. My own AA-rescinded swim was done at Michael Phelps's famous pool, the North Baltimore Aquatics Club, in a meet that had a USMS sanction number. Skip Thompson, who traveled from Michigan to swim in this meet, told me he asked about the pool measurement and was told that it was on file. There were no bulkheads involved. I did not make the mistake of swimming in an "open" event. I feel I did everything right this time!
I also feel that the USMS rule book is so dense and complex that it's hopeless for swimmers to know if they are complying. I feel like the mole in a game of bureaucratic whack-a-mole!
Anyhow, if you have your own examples of TT or All American or even World Record times that were rescinded after the fact, please use this thread to post them!
...You guys are mostly missing the problem. The failing here was in sanctioning the meet in the first place without the measurements in hand. The sanctions chair was assured by the facility manager that those measurements were on file and that the pool was the proper length. And as people have said, this was Michael Phelps' pool so she assumed it must be okay.
It was a mistake though perhaps an understandable one -- Michael Phelps' pool! -- we're all only human. The meet was sanctioned and held.
Similarly the Top 10 Recorder, when submitting the LMSC times to Mary Beth for TT consideration, assured her that the measurements were forthcoming. Everyone assumed they would be okay, so Mary Beth proceeded under that assumption.
Week after week of asking for those measurements went unanswered. Some local masters swimmers even asked some age-groupers who swim at NBAC to ask for the measurements; they were told to stop asking. USA Swimming said that the pool was not on their list of approved pools (and unlike USMS, they do not keep their rejected applications so we don't know if they ever submitted a certification form to USA-S).
So finally the LMSC chair sent their own engineer and the pool was measured way too short (an average of 3 inches, which is a lot). We have never received any measurements to contradict that so to the best of our knowledge the pool is too short and the times from the meet were pulled...
I have an honest question regarding the bolded above. If Mary Beth didn't have the measurements in hand before the lists were finalized, why wasn't the meet pulled before the lists were deemed "final"? I feel like there would be substantially less hand wringing if this had all been addressed before the lists were "finalized". I'm sure everyone who has paid attention has seen times go missing between the preliminary posting and the "final" posting. Obviously, no one on this thread (albeit not a large number of folks, but folks who pay attention typically) has ever seen times pulled after the "final" lists have been released. I understand the purpose of the errata, but as Leslie said above, the so-called scrivener's errors (and outright fraud) are different than this situation. Also, to be frank, the sanctioning wasn't the only failing in this situation.
...You guys are mostly missing the problem. The failing here was in sanctioning the meet in the first place without the measurements in hand. The sanctions chair was assured by the facility manager that those measurements were on file and that the pool was the proper length. And as people have said, this was Michael Phelps' pool so she assumed it must be okay.
It was a mistake though perhaps an understandable one -- Michael Phelps' pool! -- we're all only human. The meet was sanctioned and held.
Similarly the Top 10 Recorder, when submitting the LMSC times to Mary Beth for TT consideration, assured her that the measurements were forthcoming. Everyone assumed they would be okay, so Mary Beth proceeded under that assumption.
Week after week of asking for those measurements went unanswered. Some local masters swimmers even asked some age-groupers who swim at NBAC to ask for the measurements; they were told to stop asking. USA Swimming said that the pool was not on their list of approved pools (and unlike USMS, they do not keep their rejected applications so we don't know if they ever submitted a certification form to USA-S).
So finally the LMSC chair sent their own engineer and the pool was measured way too short (an average of 3 inches, which is a lot). We have never received any measurements to contradict that so to the best of our knowledge the pool is too short and the times from the meet were pulled...
I have an honest question regarding the bolded above. If Mary Beth didn't have the measurements in hand before the lists were finalized, why wasn't the meet pulled before the lists were deemed "final"? I feel like there would be substantially less hand wringing if this had all been addressed before the lists were "finalized". I'm sure everyone who has paid attention has seen times go missing between the preliminary posting and the "final" posting. Obviously, no one on this thread (albeit not a large number of folks, but folks who pay attention typically) has ever seen times pulled after the "final" lists have been released. I understand the purpose of the errata, but as Leslie said above, the so-called scrivener's errors (and outright fraud) are different than this situation. Also, to be frank, the sanctioning wasn't the only failing in this situation.
