Though this topic has received some attention in various threads over the years, it is the dead of winter, and I think that those of us in the Northeast, at least, could do with a little blood boiling to warm up the extremities!
To this end, I am wondering how many of my fellow swimmers have had swim times disallowed ex post facto in USMS sanctioned meets, and if so, for what reason?
As some of you who read my blog may recall, I have had a number of TT-worthy times disallowed for various reasons over the years, ranging from lack of timeliness in submitting the paperwork, to swimming a couple races in the "Open" category.
Recently, I have had my first and only All American swim retroactively yanked, some five weeks after the Top 10 list was officially published. Obviously, this is not as bad as those unfortunate souls who have had World Records declared ineligible for consideration.
Nevertheless, it does sting. I invite you to read the details of my De-All'ing (from my perspective) here: byjimthornton.com/.../
Note: I do not question the right of USMS to have rules more stringent than USA-S and FINA. What I do believe is unfair to us swimmers is when these rules apply to us but not to those in charge of making sure that all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed when they secure sanctions for meets and collect the meet fees. My own AA-rescinded swim was done at Michael Phelps's famous pool, the North Baltimore Aquatics Club, in a meet that had a USMS sanction number. Skip Thompson, who traveled from Michigan to swim in this meet, told me he asked about the pool measurement and was told that it was on file. There were no bulkheads involved. I did not make the mistake of swimming in an "open" event. I feel I did everything right this time!
I also feel that the USMS rule book is so dense and complex that it's hopeless for swimmers to know if they are complying. I feel like the mole in a game of bureaucratic whack-a-mole!
Anyhow, if you have your own examples of TT or All American or even World Record times that were rescinded after the fact, please use this thread to post them!
Though there is no rule "freezing" the TT lists at the the time they are final, I would still think that a better policy -- and that's all there really appears to be on this topic -- is to make "final" lists final in terms of material substantive changes. Errata are for correcting scrivener's errors or minor clarifications. As for the person falsifying their age, fraud would vitiate any claim to a time. (Good lord that's pathetic.)
The real culprit here is the meet director who basically hoodwinked the poor sanctions chair and handled the whole situation in bad faith -- from creating the meet entry form, to getting a sanctions number, to accepting people's entry fees, to assuring people the measurement was on file, etc. I have to admit, it makes me rather leery about going to MD Series meets.
I rather doubt that Greg Shaw would complain about his time getting bumped by Jim. He seems like a stand up guy, and I can't imagine him or anyone wanting to have a #1 time if he/she knew someone else had really earned it. And, despite the 3 inches, Jim's adjusted time would still have been faster. He really was screwed.
The way the rules are written now can be pretty harsh. If the pool is 3/1000 of a centimeter off in 2 of 8 lanes, those selective times don't count. Perhaps there should be some tiny margin of deviation/error permitted. Is this rule going to be revisited any time soon? As things stand now, USMS IS in fact accepting times from pools that haven't been measured when USMS swimmers compete abroad in FINA sanctioned meets.
It is worth considering whether it is a better policy, but it must depend on the circumstances. Let's say, for instance, that someone's time was submitted but through some error was accidentally left off the list and the error was not caught until after the "final" list was published. Should the error not be corrected?
I guess the current policy (which pre-dates my time on Recs & Tab) is there to make sure the published list accurately reflects the eligible times that were properly submitted by the deadline.
I'm sure Greg wouldn't complain but he isn't the only one affected. There were many times and swimmers in that meet, not just Jim (he's just screaming the loudest). Imagine a person who is currently 10th on a TT list now that the meet was pulled. Perhaps it is that person's first-ever TT time. Wouldn't that person have a legitimate beef if we decided to ignore the pool's measurements and allow the times?
The rules can be revisited in a rules year unless it is deemed an emergency. Proposed rules have to be submitted to the Rules Committee by another standing committee or by an LMSC.
USMS is not accepting times from unmeasured international pools (Article 105.1.6A "Record applications and Top10 submissions shall not be accepted unless certification of course length accompanies them or is on file with USMS or FINA."). What changed in 2013 is that we stopped insisting that other national governing bodies follow USMS measurement rules for bulkhead pools. Basically we decided that if -- as was the case at Canadian Nationals a while back -- a time is acceptable to FINA as a WR, then it should be acceptable to USMS as a NR or TT time. (Surely you aren't arguing against that decision?)
Though there is no rule "freezing" the TT lists at the the time they are final, I would still think that a better policy -- and that's all there really appears to be on this topic -- is to make "final" lists final in terms of material substantive changes. Errata are for correcting scrivener's errors or minor clarifications. As for the person falsifying their age, fraud would vitiate any claim to a time. (Good lord that's pathetic.)
The real culprit here is the meet director who basically hoodwinked the poor sanctions chair and handled the whole situation in bad faith -- from creating the meet entry form, to getting a sanctions number, to accepting people's entry fees, to assuring people the measurement was on file, etc. I have to admit, it makes me rather leery about going to MD Series meets.
I rather doubt that Greg Shaw would complain about his time getting bumped by Jim. He seems like a stand up guy, and I can't imagine him or anyone wanting to have a #1 time if he/she knew someone else had really earned it. And, despite the 3 inches, Jim's adjusted time would still have been faster. He really was screwed.
The way the rules are written now can be pretty harsh. If the pool is 3/1000 of a centimeter off in 2 of 8 lanes, those selective times don't count. Perhaps there should be some tiny margin of deviation/error permitted. Is this rule going to be revisited any time soon? As things stand now, USMS IS in fact accepting times from pools that haven't been measured when USMS swimmers compete abroad in FINA sanctioned meets.
It is worth considering whether it is a better policy, but it must depend on the circumstances. Let's say, for instance, that someone's time was submitted but through some error was accidentally left off the list and the error was not caught until after the "final" list was published. Should the error not be corrected?
I guess the current policy (which pre-dates my time on Recs & Tab) is there to make sure the published list accurately reflects the eligible times that were properly submitted by the deadline.
I'm sure Greg wouldn't complain but he isn't the only one affected. There were many times and swimmers in that meet, not just Jim (he's just screaming the loudest). Imagine a person who is currently 10th on a TT list now that the meet was pulled. Perhaps it is that person's first-ever TT time. Wouldn't that person have a legitimate beef if we decided to ignore the pool's measurements and allow the times?
The rules can be revisited in a rules year unless it is deemed an emergency. Proposed rules have to be submitted to the Rules Committee by another standing committee or by an LMSC.
USMS is not accepting times from unmeasured international pools (Article 105.1.6A "Record applications and Top10 submissions shall not be accepted unless certification of course length accompanies them or is on file with USMS or FINA."). What changed in 2013 is that we stopped insisting that other national governing bodies follow USMS measurement rules for bulkhead pools. Basically we decided that if -- as was the case at Canadian Nationals a while back -- a time is acceptable to FINA as a WR, then it should be acceptable to USMS as a NR or TT time. (Surely you aren't arguing against that decision?)
