My apologies up front for asking a question that has been asked on various different threads over the past couple of years I have been in USMS. I don't remember the responses, however, and can't seem to find the answers in my searches.
Here's the deal: I started as a breaststroker and only competed in the three breaststroke events as a newbie. Seven months later, however, I competed in a pentathlon and found I really enjoyed racing the stroke sprints and 100 IM. Last year, I ended up winning my age group and felt even more encouraged to continue working on my other strokes.
Recently, I attempted an easy 400 IM in workout to see if I could swim a 100 fly without pausing at the walls. I came in at 7:24 :cane:, but it wasn't the worst in my age group in the rankings! :D
Today, after my usual three day post-meet bout of insomnia, I thought, what the heck, I'll try it again. (Yes, I AM crazy!) Again, I took the fly out very easy with the intent of surviving without rescue. My time ended up 7:16, now placing me 56 out of 71 in my age group; still low, but improved. :wiggle: So, now, I'm thinking of giving it some real effort and see where I can go with this...
50 breaststroke is my best event, followed by 100 breaststroke. After that is 50 free and 100 IM. Don't even ask where my 200 breaststroke rates... :bitching: But, my 400 IM, with some effort, will have it beat soon enough.
As a six day per week swimmer on pace to beat my goal of 400 miles for the year, how would you recommend I plan my swim week out to train 400 IM without losing breaststroke speed? I average 3,000 yards per workout and currently dedicate Mondays and Fridays to Allen's breaststroke sets or Ande's sprint IM sets that he wrote up for me. Saturday is my recovery day. September thru May, I train in a challenging coached adult program and swim 3,500 - 3,800yards; a mix of speed, endurance, etc.
Any advice or suggestions would be most appreciated! (Oh, and, by the way, I am working up to swimming 400m IM and 200yd fly, too.) :afraid:I hope to swim 400IM at Dixie Zone Championships, in August, and see where it goes from there. :worms:
Thanks, RX! :smooch: Hey, I just checked out your profile and now understand the "rx" part of "rxleakem". ;) Guilty as charged. :blush:
Hey, guess what I did today?! After swimming a timed mile for my warm-up (Geek inspired me on that one, believe it or not :rofl: ), I decided to attempt my first 200 fly, non-stop. I did it! :bliss:My time was, uhhh, :blush: (hint: it was slower than my 200 breaststroke by a lot), but I felt like I could have kept going when I was finished. Next time, I will!
:woot: x 2. :applaud:
Elaine, Congrats on looking to expand your swimming repertoire. :applaud:
I did the same this year, starting with a 400im on practice with the same goal of surviving it. :D I did it again, once a month or so, altering strategies on the different strokes and distances within the swim. You'll learn when and where you can push, and where to hold back as you gain more confidence through swimming it. :bump: I'm not an expert, but my breaststroke has improved as I work to better the im (and dropped over 40 seconds from that first try in three months time). :banana:
We'll be here for you as you rock it out! :cheerleader:
Thanks, RX! :smooch: Hey, I just checked out your profile and now understand the "rx" part of "rxleakem". ;)
Wow, congratulations to you for taking 40 seconds off your time! That inspires me, knowing that kind of drop is possible.
Hey, guess what I did today?! After swimming a timed mile for my warm-up (Geek inspired me on that one, believe it or not :rofl: ), I decided to attempt my first 200 fly, non-stop. I did it! :bliss:My time was, uhhh, :blush: (hint: it was slower than my 200 breaststroke by a lot), but I felt like I could have kept going when I was finished. Next time, I will!
Note to Ande: Your advice was spot-on. I swam the 200 exactly as you recommended I swim the fly leg of the 400 IM. Breathing every stroke is what made the difference! In the past, it was always the lack of air that caused me to need to stop, because I was trying to force myself to breathe every other stroke. This time, I had no problem at all. Yeah, it was slow, but I now know I can do it!
So much good advice, you don't need anymore, but here goes anyway...
If memory serves (big if), you reported earlier on this forum that your best 100IMscy was about 1:30. That was a while back, before you started emphasizing anything other than breaststroke, so I'll assume you can do it quicker. At the least you can post 1:30s easier now.
IM NQTs for W50-55 are (lcm) 3:20 and 7:10, and (scy) 1:18, 2:49 and 6:06. Those are good target times for you, all eventually doable. Where do you start?
I would train 200s and 300s quite a bit, in order to lay the foundation for clean 400s. They also make 100s feel like a walk in the park. Consider doing sets that alternate between straight 200s and 300s, and daisied 100s (swim right through, no rest). Everyone expects daisies to be easier than straight IM sets, but that's not always the case. Returning to fly after doing the other strokes can be a challenge. Also, try daisied 200s (2x200, no rest) as you build to the 400. For fun, try doing the stroke medley backwards (fly last). All these variations acclimate your body (and mind) to the unavoidable shock that is distance IM.
Now, which NQTs do you go after first? Since you can do a 100IMscy in 1:30, try to daisy two together for 3:00. Peel away a few seconds, and you approach the 200scy NQT. Work on holding the same pace through a straight 200. Daisy four 1:30s together and you have the equivalent of the 400scy time. Try to hold that time across a straight 400. As you become more aggressive at one distance (say 200), try to apply that attitude to the next higher distance.
Your August meet appears to be lcm. Perfect target for a 200IMlcm NQT, which is 200 seconds. Think of it as an average of four 50 second lengths. Some lengths (fly and free), you'll come way under 50. Backstroke may cost you a few seconds. You should hold 50 in the breaststroke, your strength. Remember, the breaststroke length is where many IMers go to die, and that's not going to happen to you. That's where you might reel some folks in.
Whenever possible, practice IM long-course. Think of it as the 'norm,' and short-course as 'assisted swimming.' Long-course plays a lot of unnecessary head trips on swimmers, especially IMers. The more you embrace and seek out lcm, the quicker you will reach IM NQTs in all formats.
Good luck, and thanks for listening!
:wave: Hi Woofus! Thanks for your good luck wishes! Thanks for listening? Thank you. You know I have always listened to and valued your advice. Hey, I still work on scoopin' those puppies, ya know. ;) Just this morning, I swam a timed mile for my warm-up and worked on PPS. :D
I was hoping you would pop in on this thread, being that you have been on a 400 IM mission for 2011/2012 (and, I will assume 2013...). It looks like I will be joining you on the same quest. Now that I know I can swim 200 fly, it builds my confidence that I can do this.
Regarding my 100 IM, my PB is 1:25.12. So, I have dropped almost 5 seconds since then...
As for training LCM, opportunities are bleak in this part of Georgia. Steve Lundquist Aquatic Center will convert to LCM only twice this year; two weeks in July leading up to a couple of meets. Otherwise it is always SCY. You bet I will be living there during that time! After that, it would mean traveling 11/2 hours roundtrip to swim LCM. :bitching: So, I may have to settle for overdistance SCY IM's to compensate, when I am stuck in the tub here. At least it would work my turns! :D
Thanks for your training suggestions; great stuff! So, how is your 400 IM time coming along? Send me an e-mail if you would rather, but I would be curious to hear the news!
Good job!! Keep it up and the fly will be easier on the 400 IM.
Thanks, 'shark! I believe the key for me was taking Ande's advice to do just a couple of SDK off each wall and breathe every stroke. Before, when I swam fly, I became oxygen depleted by trying to get in more SDK off each wall and breathe every other stroke. Not being good (yet) at SDK and not having the strongest lungs in the world, I was wearing out too soon. I was trying to force it and I wasn't staying relaxed.
I used to hate breathing every stroke on fly, though, because it bothered my neck. Now that I am learning to look down at the water, keep my neck relaxed, and not force my arms around, it is all becoming so much easier for me.
I plan on taking Peter's (pmmcoy) advice and do a slow 400 IM as a warm-up each day, just for starters! :agree:
Hey, guess what I did today?! After swimming a timed mile for my warm-up (Geek inspired me on that one, believe it or not :rofl: ), I decided to attempt my first 200 fly, non-stop. I did it! :bliss:My time was, uhhh, :blush: (hint: it was slower than my 200 breaststroke by a lot), but I felt like I could have kept going when I was finished. Next time, I will!
Good job!! Keep it up and the fly will be easier on the 400 IM.
2k straight fly!?!
you crazy, that's why you are the Elaine-Iak.
my suggestion is don't swim sloppy fly
:ohyeah: Yeah, I'm living up to your name for me.;)
Reviewing my videos, my stroke looks about the same at the end as it did at the start. But, having said that, I know my fly needs improvement; especially with my undulation and stiff-looking back. And, my feet were coming completely out of the water. In trying to get a better up kick, I was taking it too far, rather than keeping the kick small. So, that is my next challenge.
Ande, did you see anything else on the videos I should work on to improve my stroke? I definitely do NOT want a sloppy fly!
By the way, I am still doing your sprint sets and working on my sprint fly. I don't plan on doing endurance fly any more than a couple of times a month. But, I really do enjoy it; I actually find it relaxing and therapeutic! :bliss:
This pretty much sums up my entire training philosophy.
I will say I've noticed among newer swimmers this tendency to say "I am a sprinter" simply because they haven't put in the aerobic work to discover they are actually pretty good at distance or mid distance. True sprint training is just as grueling as distance training and I see a few who think they are sprinters confuse short racing for short training. The amount of yardage you do is basically irrelevant if it is without a purpose. And, I'm gonna say it and it won't be so nice, but if you are struggling to make NQTs in 50s/100s maybe you aren't truly a sprinter and can explore distance, that which is the most pure form of swimming.
I also think that it is fairly hard to be really good at both sprinting and distance. I don't know many 50 swimmers who are also great d swimmers, and vice versa. The faster the swimming, the slower I get. PWB went over to the dark side for a season and had great results but he's not like the rest of us.
Hey Geek, I went over to the dark side the other day and paid a visit to the animal lane, taking Kirk's advice of doing 30+ minutes of continuous swimming, to work on endurance. I swam 2,000 yards of continuous butterfly (46+ minutes :blush: ).
http://youtu.be/4PJouksr3wIhttp://youtu.be/BfKKZa3uUYM
Does that make me an animal or still just an insect? ;)
Hey Geek, I went over to the dark side the other day and paid a visit to the animal lane, taking Kirk's advice of doing 30+ minutes of continuous swimming, to work on endurance. I swam 2,000 yards of continuous butterfly (46+ minutes :blush: ).
http://youtu.be/4PJouksr3wIhttp://youtu.be/BfKKZa3uUYM
Does that make me an animal or still just an insect? ;)
What did Geek infect you with:afraid:. You used to be a sprint breaststroker,but now a 2000 fly is a piece of cake(a very large piece of cake that no doubt causes indigestion.)
Seriously though,good for you,keep doing different things and keep having fun:banana::banana:.
What did Geek infect you with:afraid:. You used to be a sprint breaststroker,but now a 2000 fly is a piece of cake(a very large piece of cake that no doubt causes indigestion.)
Seriously though,good for you,keep doing different things and keep having fun:banana::banana:.
:lmao: Ohhh nooo; don't even go there! I will always be a sprint breaststroker! I LOVE swimming the 50 and I am learning to love the 100. But, it's the 200 breaststroke that gets me every time...
It's a combination of this: Getting frustrated that I haven't been able to break my PB of 38.90 in the 50 breaststroke, since I swam it in 2010. And, it has been over a year since I have had a PB in the 100 and 200. Of course, the strained adductor (3 times) didn't help any...
The other motivating factor was realizing that I do better and have more fun if I swim more events at meets, rather than waiting around, in between my breaststroke races. So, I added more events and ended up winning high points at the first two Georgia Championship Series meets. I'm starting to like this high points thing; especially since it forced me to compete in other strokes. Now, I'm hooked! :banana:
