Last week, I blundered upon a kick set that proved to be fun and challenging for the likes of me, that is to say, a fellow with pretty piss-poor SDKs.
The idea behind the set was to gradually build up my dolphin kicking capacity by starting out with all flutter kick and 0 dolphin kicks per length, then adding (1) dolphin kick off each wall per 50, then (2) per length per 50, then (3) per wall per 50, and so on, till I was kicking the whole thing butterfly.
This happened at the 1450 yard mark. By this point, I'd gradually worked my way up to 30 dolphin kicks (and 0 flutter kicks) per 25 to finish a set that ultimately proved 1500 yards of kicking.
I wrote about this blundering set and its aftermath two days later on my abdominal muscles in my most recent vlog entry here forums.usms.org/blog.php
Taking 30 dolphin kicks per 25, I realize, sounds pretty godawful to the natural cetaceans in our midst. Anyhow, a couple vlog readers wondered what the average number required is, so I thought I would conduct a poll.
This isn't an ordinary poll--I don't want responders to answer off the top of their heads. Rather, the next time you at practice, do this experiment and report back your actual findings.
1. Use a kick board
2. Do not use fins.
3. Conduct this experiment in a 25 yard course for consistency of replies.
4. Kick butterfly for an entire 50 without stopping. Count the number of total number of kicks you take. (I know you would take less doing actual SDKs without a board, but for this particular poll, please do it with a board on the surface.)
In my case, it took me 30 dolphin kicks down, and 30 dolphin kicks back, for the unremarkable score of 60. Please do not ask me what my time was, because I am sure it was over a minute.
And PLEASE only respond after you're tried this--do NOT go from memory or approximate what you think you should or could do. I want an accurate count!
Note: one last thing--just kick as normally as you can kick butterfly (which in my case is not that normal). No need to try for some record by gliding as far as possible after each kick; neither should you feel obligated to do millions of tiny whip like kicks, as if in imitation of your father's contribution to your begetting.
Just do it normally, or as normally as you can. I want to get an idea of what the range is.
Thanks!
Okay, at the end of warmup I did 2 x 50 dolphin kick with a board, the first one at about 80-85% effort and the next one a little harder:
#1 went 33 with 42 kicks total (21/21)
#2 went 30 with 43 kicks total (21/22)
Combine that with yesterday's 50 underwater SDK, where I went 26 with 42 kicks total. This is faster than I could do with a board and was close to all-out, I would guesstimate that I would have taken about 44 kicks with a board and gone a 28-29 with that same effort level.
The overall picture, at least in my case:
-- I guess when I go faster, kick at a higher frequency without sacrificing distance-per-kick TOO greatly
-- I take about as many kicks per lengths as many others here (the 41-50 category of the poll seems the most popular). Since my times are on the fast side, the difference would seem to be in the kick frequency rather than the DPK, at least in my case. Or, put another way, I can maintain the same DPK as many others while having a higher kick frequency.
It isn't really what I expected, since I have very flexible ankles I always assumed my DPK would be high while the frequency would be about average, rather than the other way around. But we haven't heard from many others, and certainly I could do far fewer kicks (maximizing DPK) if I accepted somewhat slower times.
Okay, at the end of warmup I did 2 x 50 dolphin kick with a board, the first one at about 80-85% effort and the next one a little harder:
#1 went 33 with 42 kicks total (21/21)
#2 went 30 with 43 kicks total (21/22)
Combine that with yesterday's 50 underwater SDK, where I went 26 with 42 kicks total. This is faster than I could do with a board and was close to all-out, I would guesstimate that I would have taken about 44 kicks with a board and gone a 28-29 with that same effort level.
The overall picture, at least in my case:
-- I guess when I go faster, kick at a higher frequency without sacrificing distance-per-kick TOO greatly
-- I take about as many kicks per lengths as many others here (the 41-50 category of the poll seems the most popular). Since my times are on the fast side, the difference would seem to be in the kick frequency rather than the DPK, at least in my case. Or, put another way, I can maintain the same DPK as many others while having a higher kick frequency.
It isn't really what I expected, since I have very flexible ankles I always assumed my DPK would be high while the frequency would be about average, rather than the other way around. But we haven't heard from many others, and certainly I could do far fewer kicks (maximizing DPK) if I accepted somewhat slower times.
Chris, I remember seeing the photos of you in Swimmer, and your ankles are more than flexible. It crossed my mind that your mother might have taken a tiny dose of thalidomide back in the day. Your feet looked like a seal's.
I agree that the 41-50 category is probably where many of the top butterfly kickers are likely to fall. I also think the difference you suggest between using a board vs. not using a board makes a relatively small amount of difference for most, maybe 1 or 2 kicks per length.
To those who claim to make an entire 50 in 10 kicks or less, and even those claiming 30 or less, I would love to see some YouTube evidence in support. Sure, anybody can lessen their overall count by gliding interminably between each kick. But even using this strategy, I have trouble believing you can make a whole 50 in 10 or less kicks.
As for the difference between DPK and frequency, I think the latter is probably a more important factor for most of us in speed. When I watch you, Chris, or Leslie, or Michael Ross do SDK's, I am always struck by how quickly you guys are whip tailing your way through the depths. The bigger the kick, the more you violate an optimal streamline, one would think; thus I sense that doing a bunch of quick, tight, streamlined kicks would propel you faster than more fewer and more exaggerated monster kicks.
One other question: I agree with Leslie that using a board to kick is hard on the shoulders, and for many reasons, this seems particularly true with fly kicks. On the other hand, it's hard to really work on endurance if you are forced to hold your breath length after length doing prolonged SDKs.
Do you see any value to those of us who are trying to get better at SDKs doing sets like the one I described in my vlog (1500 mixed flutter and fly kicks with a board, gradually reducing the percentage of flutter while increasing the percentage of fly)?
And is Leslie right about fin training being the way to go here? I know fins help increase ankle flexibility, but it's so much easier to kick SDKs with fins that I wonder if I should be practicing the fin-less variety I will actually be using in competition?
As part of practice today I did two 400 IM kicks, so I kept track the first 50 of each.
The results were quite typical for me.
#1) :54 out in 28 kicks back in 30.
#2) :57 out in 29 kicks back in 30.
As an indication of the level of effort. Both 400 IM kicks were 7:40, which is better than average for me, but not great. Anything under 7:30 is very good. PB is 7:19.
When folks here do kick sets with a board, do you use the last 6-8 ft to stroke with your arm into the wall or do you kick all the way to the wall?
I suspect this won't make a huge difference but may account for a few less/more kicks/50 one way or another.
Also how much push off each wall are folks using?
I average about :50-:55 seconds per 50 (slooooow I know) and about 28 kicks per 25 with an average push off each wall, and without swimming the last couple of yards into the wall.
I did start out hyperventing 2-4 times before pushing off to get enough air.
Not recommended these days because of the risk of shallow water blackout:
www.swimmingcoach.org/.../9903-1.htm
be careful :)
Not recommended these days because of the risk of shallow water blackout:
www.swimmingcoach.org/.../9903-1.htm
be careful :)
Thanks. Will knock that off. Especially since there are no guards and sometimes nobody else in the pool (i don't do underwaters when nobody else is there).
I'm not sure how much benefit there is from doing 1500s kicks ... I know you were just experimenting, but still. For kicking, I would stick with shorter distances at race pace or perhaps for some kick endurance. I personally like to do either shooters on my belly to work on fly SDK or fast kicks with board & fins. The snorkel options sounds good as well.
I did not imply that fins are THE only way to develop a fast kick. I have used them to develop a fast kick, and like the power & flexibility I get from them. But Chris and Ande don't use fins and are very fast dolphin kickers. Many ways to skin a cat! You have to experiment, find what works for you and what you like to do. I happen to like fins. Throw in some ankle push ups while you're at it. :)
Oh, definitely don't put on fins and then go slow. Fins are for speed/power work for the most part.
For some reason, I tend to get arch cramps when wearing fins, especially if I put them on later in the workout.
The purpose of the 1500 kick was more to learn how to recruit my core and try to groove that into muscle memory. I am still not sure I am dolphin kicking correctly--it used to be all legs and knees. By going longer distances and trying to concentrate on using the abs and hips a bit more, the hope, at least, is to get the correct technique into muscle memory...
It seems to be helping a little. I can now do an entire 25 yard SDK underwater, which would have been impossible for me a year ago. I suspect that this will never be a hugely advantageous "second fastest stroke" kind of deal for me. (In this, it's a bit like T.I.--good in theory, but it slows me down in actual practice.) My ultimate goal is to be able to do 2 or 3 hard SDKs off the walls in the 100 and 200 free, keeping me down long enough to surface comfortably past the flags, and maybe save my arms a bit so I will have more strength to finish strong.
I started doing underwater shooters w/fins (8-16 x 25) on belly and on back from Leslie's HIT workouts a few months back (haven't done shooters in a few weeks), and they really work your abs. On back, it is surreal looking up through the water and dropping your head back too to see the wall upside down (like 60s psychedelic man). I could feel the difference in my abs in about two weeks! Underwater encourages one to streamline in order to make it. You can easily tell the difference streamlining makes by picking your head up vs. keeping it locked down looking at the bottom with head between your arms. IMO these really are both great work and fun to do.
I did start out hyperventing 2-4 times before pushing off to get enough air. You do get better at it after time and the hypoxic work becomes less of a factor at least in a 25 scy.
Im not a strong fly kicker and will see what i come up with on a board, above water and without fins.
Then hyperventilate away! It's a free country :) I will, however, definitely not recommend hyperventilating before breath holding to my swimmers or to anyone I know. Better safe than sorry.
There's some question about the value of breath holding work benefitting swimming in the first place. If it's questionable to begin with, why add an unnecessary element of danger?
I like underwater 25's and I like breathing patterns because they keep me somewhat entertained on longer pulling sets. I don't ever hyperventilate beforehand and I'm just fine. The hyperventilating seems not only unnecessary but possibly dangerous. If you need to do it and like to live on the edge - go for it!
Point taken, Amy!
Now, will you at least try my broken glass laxative?
Perhaps I'm a bit confused... is there a difference between several short, quick deep breaths (my interpretation of hyperventilating) and a few long deep breaths? We occasionally do 25 yard underwaters (various kinds) on :40 and I'm certainly guilty of the latter behavior. My purpose is to clear the excessive CO2 buildup in my lungs... not to eek a few extra seconds out of the next underwater. Hopefully I'm not endangering myself but at the same time earning a pass on the broken glass laxative going around.
