Phelps owned the 200 IM for years.
Lochte beat him, and took the World Record, at last year's world championships.
Ryan Lochte NEW World Record 200m Individual Medley - YouTube
In the process, Lochte became the first person to set a LCM world record in the post-tech suit era. Only one other WR has fallen since--the Chinese guy who beat Hackett's 1500 m record.
In the course of writing up an article on Lochte for Men's Health, I asked him and some of his coach's about the Lochte-Phelps rivalry, and I didn't get terribly far.
What I need is a knowledgable source (or sources) who can discuss their respective odds objectively and be willing to be quoted. Perhaps a world class coach who has no ties to either one? Any suggestions?
In the meantime, what do you guys think?
Who has the edge in terms of each stroke?
Phelps better in fly?
Lochte better in back?
It seemed in their race at World's, Lochte gained some in ***? But was this just a fluke?
Equal in free?
What about speed vs. endurance? Phelps isn't swimming the 400 IM, right? But he was always noted more for 200-400 greatness, a bit less for all out sprinting (with the exception, maybe, of the 100 fly)? Isn't Lochte the same way?
Which of the two has more sprinting speed?
What about endurance?
At this level, what is the 200 IM considered--a long sprint or a short mid-D race?
What about mental attitude? Now that Lochte has emerged from Phelps' shadow in a top level competition, do you think he's ever going back? Was last year's Worlds a fluke for Phelps or a genuine changing of the guard?
Any insights would be tremendously appreciated!
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Merciless AND pitiless does sound pretty tough!
Nah, I don't see any of them getting close to 8 golds. But we don't need to move the goalposts. Lochte winning "only" 5 golds would constitute a phenomenally successful outing.
Unless he admits to doping or something, Phelps' legacy is just fine regardless of what he does in London.
Did I say something in this thread that made you feel you needed to say something about Lochte getting "only" 5 golds? Cuz I agree with you, if he gets five, that's one of the best Olympic performances ever, especially since he'd be in a pond with a fish as big as Phelps in it. No dispute there!
As for Phelps' legacy, first just let me say, I don't believe in the notion that his eight golds in Beijing grant him "Legacy Immunity." That doesn't mean I expect him to get nine or ten golds in London. I don't even expect him to get seven. Or six. I'll be happy with however much he gets, and I'll be happy for him if he beats Lochte in all their match-ups (and vice versa, if Lochte beats him instead).
The biggest danger to something like "legacy" is perception. And the physical, concrete danger to Phelps' legacy is Lochte, Lochte, Lochte. For some reason, even though he riveted the world with his Beijing performance and people tuned in night after night to watch him, I don't think people took to Michael Phelps as much as they did with athletes like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. Maybe it's because Phelps is more reticent, more camera-shy, whatever, but I also think people are going to take to Ryan Lochte in a way that they never did with Michael Phelps. Part of that is the physical attractiveness that James mentioned and joked about, but it's also about his ebullient personality, the whole Zen thing to being himself, as dangerous as that can be to his swimming goals.* It's kind of like Lochte has more of an identifiable and relatable personality than Phelps, and that's only going to get magnified tenfold when Lochte becomes the Underdog, the David, to Phelps' Evil Empire, Yankee Organization, Goliath. And then, after the the hype machine hits critical mass on the eve of the swimming events at London, what if Lochte starts beating Phelps in all their match-ups? What if he sweeps?
Ten years on, swim geeks like you and I would always remember Phelps' eight golds in Beijing more quickly and judge such a thing as more impressive a feat than what Lochte would have done in London. But the rest of the world, and that's the 99% of the people watching the Olympics, will remember the surfer dude who never gave up, always believed in himself, and toppled the Greatest Olympian of All Time.
*I've always observed this about Michael Phelps and Ryan Lochte, because someone like Ryan Lochte mystifies me, like I'm always going, "How is he like that?" Meanwhile, I'm one of the people who understands Michael Phelps, who gets him, partially because I'm way more like Phelps than Lochte, personality-wise. But there's a lot of people who just don't get Michael Phelps, so they say he's shy or he's cocky and arrogant or he's just plain dumb. This is also another reason that of these two rivals, I'll be rooting for Phelps. I get him. But most people are going to take to Lochte in a nanosecond as opposed to Phelps. Lochte just has way more appeal and charisma.
Merciless AND pitiless does sound pretty tough!
Nah, I don't see any of them getting close to 8 golds. But we don't need to move the goalposts. Lochte winning "only" 5 golds would constitute a phenomenally successful outing.
Unless he admits to doping or something, Phelps' legacy is just fine regardless of what he does in London.
Did I say something in this thread that made you feel you needed to say something about Lochte getting "only" 5 golds? Cuz I agree with you, if he gets five, that's one of the best Olympic performances ever, especially since he'd be in a pond with a fish as big as Phelps in it. No dispute there!
As for Phelps' legacy, first just let me say, I don't believe in the notion that his eight golds in Beijing grant him "Legacy Immunity." That doesn't mean I expect him to get nine or ten golds in London. I don't even expect him to get seven. Or six. I'll be happy with however much he gets, and I'll be happy for him if he beats Lochte in all their match-ups (and vice versa, if Lochte beats him instead).
The biggest danger to something like "legacy" is perception. And the physical, concrete danger to Phelps' legacy is Lochte, Lochte, Lochte. For some reason, even though he riveted the world with his Beijing performance and people tuned in night after night to watch him, I don't think people took to Michael Phelps as much as they did with athletes like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. Maybe it's because Phelps is more reticent, more camera-shy, whatever, but I also think people are going to take to Ryan Lochte in a way that they never did with Michael Phelps. Part of that is the physical attractiveness that James mentioned and joked about, but it's also about his ebullient personality, the whole Zen thing to being himself, as dangerous as that can be to his swimming goals.* It's kind of like Lochte has more of an identifiable and relatable personality than Phelps, and that's only going to get magnified tenfold when Lochte becomes the Underdog, the David, to Phelps' Evil Empire, Yankee Organization, Goliath. And then, after the the hype machine hits critical mass on the eve of the swimming events at London, what if Lochte starts beating Phelps in all their match-ups? What if he sweeps?
Ten years on, swim geeks like you and I would always remember Phelps' eight golds in Beijing more quickly and judge such a thing as more impressive a feat than what Lochte would have done in London. But the rest of the world, and that's the 99% of the people watching the Olympics, will remember the surfer dude who never gave up, always believed in himself, and toppled the Greatest Olympian of All Time.
*I've always observed this about Michael Phelps and Ryan Lochte, because someone like Ryan Lochte mystifies me, like I'm always going, "How is he like that?" Meanwhile, I'm one of the people who understands Michael Phelps, who gets him, partially because I'm way more like Phelps than Lochte, personality-wise. But there's a lot of people who just don't get Michael Phelps, so they say he's shy or he's cocky and arrogant or he's just plain dumb. This is also another reason that of these two rivals, I'll be rooting for Phelps. I get him. But most people are going to take to Lochte in a nanosecond as opposed to Phelps. Lochte just has way more appeal and charisma.
