Swimming after liftin'

Quoted: Force production is a fickle thing in the water. You push the water, the water pushes back, up to a certain point. If you push too hard, the water "caves" (it's called cavitation" and you "slip" in the water. This is when "bubbles" show up, and coaches tell you you have a poor "catch"! (As in, you're not grabbing the water because you pushed too hard!) Chris Ritter went over a detailed plan for structuring the order of dryland and swimming. theswimmerscircle.com/.../ Regarding cords, you shouldn't be doing them primarily for strength. They are for shoulder stability, as in recruiting the little guys who wouldn't otherwise be engaged. So I do them every day, they're never done to fatigue (because fatigue is not the point! It's not for endurance... fatigue is catabolic, rest is anabolic!) Weights can't replaced swimming as far as getting faster goes. But you can get stronger in the pool by doing all out work/adding resistance. Functional strength is built by doing the movements you want stronger, not by isolating components and doing them separately and slower. I think reading the original post by SwimBRCT goes to his points, AND I think many are thinking in terms of absolutes when really there is a wide array of swimming circumstances and human conditions involved. First think about an analogy of a boat, motor and propeller. The propeller pushes water backwards and that makes the boat go forward. Your arm and hand do the same (ignore lift). To make the boat go faster, one increases the throttle, the engine increases in speed and the tranny then makes the propeller spin faster. The speed increases as the prop spins faster until it reaches the maximum engine speed (RPM). The boat is not going faster because the propeller is pushing the water harder, but because it's turning faster and pushing water at a higher rate. If one wants the propeller to push harder, one has to increase the diameter or reshape it to be more efficient at the desired size and RPM. One can keep putting bigger and bigger engines on the boat, but if using the same propeller at the same speed, the bigger hp won't make the boat go any faster. That is, if the propeller is 8" diameter, spinning at the max engine speed of 1200 RPM, and a 20 hp engine is needed to make this happen, replacing the engine with 1,000 hp engine will not make the boat go any faster (probably would go slower due to the extra weight). Conversely, if it requires 20 hp engine to turn the propeller at a speed of 1200 RPM and the engine is only 10hp, the engine would either operate below max RPMs or burn up and the boat won't reach or sustain the desired velocity. You can buy more speed for your boat by getting a motor with more hp and bigger dia. propeller. However, for humans we're stuck with what we're born with as far as the propeller goes - you grow and the dia. becomes fixed for each individual. My propeller at 5'-9" ht. doen't have the same potential as a person at 6'-9" turning at the same RPM and mechanics. (But, the hp required to drive that bigger propeller will be greater at the same RPMs and propeller mechanics.) You can also buy more speed for a boat by purchasing a propeller with a better more efficient design. There are 8" propellers that are designed for power to bite faster and yank a skier out of the water, and 8" propellers designed to operate efficently at slow RPMs for say fishing. The mechanics of the propeller's design govern its ability to create boat velocity at a given rotational speed. With better design, the propeller may need less hp and produce more boat velocity at the same rotational speed. It is conceivable that some swimmers have more than enough hp (strength), and would benefit most from improving their propeller's mechanics (stroke technique). That is, if you are very strong already, you might be adding a 100 hp engine to a propeller that only needs 20 hp to spiin at the required RPMs. In this case working on a better propeller makes more sense and would be more likely to produce resuts. There are probably some elite swimmers that conceivably aren't going to beneift (the way most of us would) from piling on more yards and swimming technique work. It's also conceivable that most of us need BOTH, that is improved propellers to gain more speed or to use less energy AND more hp (we're under-powered) or strength. So, does it make more sense to accomplish both of these in the pool where you can work on technique and strength or on dryland where you really can only work on strength? With dryland you know what you are (or aren't) doing. The workout is in-your-face and direct. In the pool it's easier to swim through a set especailly when working alone or if distracted by other stuff in your life. With dryland you can focus on your own specific muscle needs - work to balance weaknesses, stabilze shoulders, or on a too fat core. Dryland may be more efficient to get after specific difficiencies. Read the article by Ritter that Swim BRCT posted above regarding which comes first - the swimming or the lifting. I'm also wondering why Ritter found that it matters? Most of the books ive read lately on runnig, biking and swimming point our the dangers of over trainging and under-estimating recovery needs. I don't think too many masters swimmers are in danger of over-swimming, because we don't have the time. It is probably easier, however, to go over board with the weights at times for me. Pretty fascinating thread over all. Thanks. :bed:

Quoted: Force production is a fickle thing in the water. You push the water, the water pushes back, up to a certain point. If you push too hard, the water "caves" (it's called cavitation" and you "slip" in the water. This is when "bubbles" show up, and coaches tell you you have a poor "catch"! (As in, you're not grabbing the water because you pushed too hard!) Chris Ritter went over a detailed plan for structuring the order of dryland and swimming. theswimmerscircle.com/.../ Regarding cords, you shouldn't be doing them primarily for strength. They are for shoulder stability, as in recruiting the little guys who wouldn't otherwise be engaged. So I do them every day, they're never done to fatigue (because fatigue is not the point! It's not for endurance... fatigue is catabolic, rest is anabolic!) Weights can't replaced swimming as far as getting faster goes. But you can get stronger in the pool by doing all out work/adding resistance. Functional strength is built by doing the movements you want stronger, not by isolating components and doing them separately and slower. I think reading the original post by SwimBRCT goes to his points, AND I think many are thinking in terms of absolutes when really there is a wide array of swimming circumstances and human conditions involved. First think about an analogy of a boat, motor and propeller. The propeller pushes water backwards and that makes the boat go forward. Your arm and hand do the same (ignore lift). To make the boat go faster, one increases the throttle, the engine increases in speed and the tranny then makes the propeller spin faster. The speed increases as the prop spins faster until it reaches the maximum engine speed (RPM). The boat is not going faster because the propeller is pushing the water harder, but because it's turning faster and pushing water at a higher rate. If one wants the propeller to push harder, one has to increase the diameter or reshape it to be more efficient at the desired size and RPM. One can keep putting bigger and bigger engines on the boat, but if using the same propeller at the same speed, the bigger hp won't make the boat go any faster. That is, if the propeller is 8" diameter, spinning at the max engine speed of 1200 RPM, and a 20 hp engine is needed to make this happen, replacing the engine with 1,000 hp engine will not make the boat go any faster (probably would go slower due to the extra weight). Conversely, if it requires 20 hp engine to turn the propeller at a speed of 1200 RPM and the engine is only 10hp, the engine would either operate below max RPMs or burn up and the boat won't reach or sustain the desired velocity. You can buy more speed for your boat by getting a motor with more hp and bigger dia. propeller. However, for humans we're stuck with what we're born with as far as the propeller goes - you grow and the dia. becomes fixed for each individual. My propeller at 5'-9" ht. doen't have the same potential as a person at 6'-9" turning at the same RPM and mechanics. (But, the hp required to drive that bigger propeller will be greater at the same RPMs and propeller mechanics.) You can also buy more speed for a boat by purchasing a propeller with a better more efficient design. There are 8" propellers that are designed for power to bite faster and yank a skier out of the water, and 8" propellers designed to operate efficently at slow RPMs for say fishing. The mechanics of the propeller's design govern its ability to create boat velocity at a given rotational speed. With better design, the propeller may need less hp and produce more boat velocity at the same rotational speed. It is conceivable that some swimmers have more than enough hp (strength), and would benefit most from improving their propeller's mechanics (stroke technique). That is, if you are very strong already, you might be adding a 100 hp engine to a propeller that only needs 20 hp to spiin at the required RPMs. In this case working on a better propeller makes more sense and would be more likely to produce resuts. There are probably some elite swimmers that conceivably aren't going to beneift (the way most of us would) from piling on more yards and swimming technique work. It's also conceivable that most of us need BOTH, that is improved propellers to gain more speed or to use less energy AND more hp (we're under-powered) or strength. So, does it make more sense to accomplish both of these in the pool where you can work on technique and strength or on dryland where you really can only work on strength? With dryland you know what you are (or aren't) doing. The workout is in-your-face and direct. In the pool it's easier to swim through a set especailly when working alone or if distracted by other stuff in your life. With dryland you can focus on your own specific muscle needs - work to balance weaknesses, stabilze shoulders, or on a too fat core. Dryland may be more efficient to get after specific difficiencies. Read the article by Ritter that Swim BRCT posted above regarding which comes first - the swimming or the lifting. I'm also wondering why Ritter found that it matters? Most of the books ive read lately on runnig, biking and swimming point our the dangers of over trainging and under-estimating recovery needs. I don't think too many masters swimmers are in danger of over-swimming, because we don't have the time. It is probably easier, however, to go over board with the weights at times for me. Pretty fascinating thread over all. Thanks. :bed: