Newbie question

I learned 6 years ago using TI book, video and coaches. If I was to start today, I would use the materials available at www.swimsmooth.com.

I learned 6 years ago using TI book, video and coaches. If I were to start today, I would use the materials available at www.swimsmooth.com. Interesting. The styles seem to be quite different. What attracts me to TI is the increase in efficiency they claim. Is this not true? Not that it matters a lot at my stage, of course. As to my problem, maybe I figured it out by watching the animation on swimsmooth. I think that in my power stroke I am pressing down a lot more than I should. This is causing my body to lift. Once I breathe I come down and my body sinks a little. That's why, I think, I am bobbing up and down as I move forward. I see that the animation shows the hand markedly rotating downward as the power stroke begins. I guess the idea is to try to apply most of the force backwards. I'll experiment with this at the gym tonight and see how it goes. Thanks for the link.

You would probably benefit a lot from a series of group or individually coached sessions. You can do a lot on your own, but at some point you HAVE to get someone with the right experience to work with you. It sounds like you are moving in the right direction. I'd encourage you to keep visiting this forum. Not everything will be of interest to you, but there are a lot of remarkably skilled (and nice) folks here who frequently have discussions that you will likely benefit from. To get the correct body position for easy breathing in front crawl is too much to cover in one post, or even one thread probably. But this is usually how I introduce the idea... Can you float on your back with your toes out of the water? The lesson is on "center of buoyancy". You want to try it with arms in opposite positions... over your head, and at your sides. For all strokes a goal should be a flat body position in the water. This helps improve streamlining, which in turn makes everything else easier (like breathing). :-D If you want some additional articles to look over try these sources: www.h2oustonswims.org/articles_by_category.html http://www.svl.ch/index.html :)

You would probably benefit a lot from a series of group or individually coached sessions. You can do a lot on your own, but at some point you HAVE to get someone with the right experience to work with you. I second this. 10 minutes with someone who has given swimming instruction before might correct your problem. It is really hard to help with your problem because I can't see you and you can't see yourself to describe what is actually happening, but there is probably a reason you are sinking. If someone can video tape you that might help as well, but the quickest solution will be to find someone to work with you in person.

You would probably benefit a lot from a series of group or individually coached sessions. You can do a lot on your own, but at some point you HAVE to get someone with the right experience to work with you. It sounds like you are moving in the right direction. I'd encourage you to keep visiting this forum. Not everything will be of interest to you, but there are a lot of remarkably skilled (and nice) folks here who frequently have discussions that you will likely benefit from. To get the correct body position for easy breathing in front crawl is too much to cover in one post, or even one thread probably. But this is usually how I introduce the idea... Can you float on your back with your toes out of the water? The lesson is on "center of buoyancy". You want to try it with arms in opposite positions... over your head, and at your sides. For all strokes a goal should be a flat body position in the water. This helps improve streamlining, which in turn makes everything else easier (like breathing). :-D If you want some additional articles to look over try these sources: www.h2oustonswims.org/articles_by_category.html http://www.svl.ch/index.html :) Thanks for the encouragement, pointers and links. I was lucky to find an adult swimming class at the local city pool tonight and decided to go give it a shot. The downside was the none of the instructors struck me as real technical people. Most of what they do at the pool is run kids programs. I was there half an hour prior to my class to watch. Most everyone was churning-up water...lots of slapping, head out of the water, kicking out of the water, etc. Anyhow, the only real critique I got was that I wasn't kicking from the hips. I was told that I was bending my knees too much. I worked on correcting that both with a paddle board and simply swimming with my arms out front without using them. At first my kicks were large and I really wasn't moving forward very fast at all. Then I was told to try a higher frequency kick with less amplitude. That seemed to propel me forward at a faster rate. Overall it was useful just on that one point, but I am not so sure how far they can take me. I have years of martial arts behind me (far behind me) so I can be and like to be very technical and precise about motion. That also means that I am used to learning by watching, which is what I've been doing with the myriad of videos available on the web. Neat. I measured my progress by simply comparing my speed to others in adjoining lanes who were swimming laps and seemed to be proficient. One week ago I couldn't go a third of the pool without stopping because everything was wrong, including, more importantly, my breathing technique. Tonight I'd say that the best swimmer at the pool was 25% faster than I was for one lap. My breathing still isn't perfect so I have to take a short break after one lap (50m total). To me that is a huge improvement over my condition just a few days ago and every bit of it has been about technique. I am certainly not powering through any of it because I am way out of shape right now. I might try the public pool coaching again, but I would really like to find a more technical instructor to really tear apart what I am doing so that I can really learn. On this point, I would appreciate any recommendations in the San Fernando Valley or Valencia, CA region. Float on my back with toes out of the water? I think so. I tried it tonight very briefly. If I stretch out like a plank, yes. Anything else results in toes and legs sinking. I didn't play with arm positions. I'll do that tomorrow at the gym. A link to a video showing what this exercise might look like would be wonderful. I presume you are trying to determine the location of my center of buoyancy. Is this correct? What would be the significance of knowing this? Also, tomorrow I am supposed to cross our local lake (swimming, of course). It's a little over 300 meters. My son is in the local Junior Lifeguard program. They invite parents to do the crossing with the kids at the end of the session. I did it last year and was dead last. I was the only swimmer left in the lake, swimming on my own for probably 15 minutes (lifeguards flanking me on surfboards). My ***-stroke was horrible --never having taken a lesson in my life-- so I wasn't very fast at all. Anyhow, I am thinking of doing it again tomorrow. I think that my freestyle technique is reasonable enough. My problem right now is that I am running out of breath. I think I am going to get one of those swimming snorkels and just do it. I should be fine. Heck, there will be about 15 lifeguards on surfboards along the crossing path. Why not? It's cheating, but, then again, I get to focus on technique for 300m straight. Sorry, long post.

Do you have a local Masters group? The coach might be able to give you some lessons. Most of the people in my grop are really willing to help an interested beginner. We have a lot of triathletes who are not good swimmier, but are very fit athletes. They learn fast. They follow instructions quickly and can adapt to a good swimming pace quickly. Yes! Found a Masters group nearby. Contacted the coach. I am going to try and make one of their sessions in the next couple of days. It sound like this is exactly what I need. Thanks for bringing it up. -Martin

Because of your comfort with crossing open water, I'd not be inclined to call you a beginner, but from what you've described, I bet there are some really nervous lifeguards watching you... especially if you are bigger than they are. Well, I don't know what else to call me...maybe an "advancing beginner"? No need for the lifeguards to worry about me. I am super-comfortable in water. A long time ago I used to be heavy into sailing. I decided that, at the very least, I needed to be good at floating. So I developed a simple technique and tested it in open water. Two hours later I got back in the boat because I was bored. It felt like I could go on for hours. It involves going completely limp and trying to use a bit of natural bobbing up/down motion (with as little help as needed) to breathe. Very relaxing. I admire your courage. And believe me, anyone who knows is going to do the same. You have a lot of good ideas and drive... and having the right motivation is probably 90% of what you need now... plus putting in the time in the water. Your current level of enthusiasm and motivation is going to take you a long way. When folks see that for themselves, they will respect and admire it. You have a fair amount of work ahead of you though, so be patient... and practice. ;) Wow, thanks. I am really excited about getting good at this and sort of kicking my self for not having done it a long time ago. Considering that I've always levitated towards water sports (sailing, scuba, kayaking, sculling, fishing --had to throw that one in) I don't understand why it took me so long to decide to learn. Maybe it was the fact that I was 15 behind the last person out of the lake for last years' crossing. The other element is that I found myself on the treadmill doing some cardio looking over to the pool section thinking "I really don't care for this hamster machine". be careful about chatting folks up that are in the middle of a practice session. Yeah. I thought about approaching folks I see at the gym that look so incredibly smooth in the pool...but I know very well what it is to be focused in what you are doing, it'd be rude to interrupt. Coaching would be the best for longer-term learning anyhow. I found the local Masters Swimming Club and talked to the head coach. I am going to do a one week trial starting in the next couple of days. It sounds like this is exactly the program I need. Keep us posted on your progress... you will likely find a lot of encouragement here if you visit often enough. Whatever you do, just don't forget to keep it FUN! I will. This certainly looks like a great forum. I am glad that I found it. Thanks for the links. I'll report back in about a week.

Do you have a local Masters group? The coach might be able to give you some lessons. Most of the people in my grop are really willing to help an interested beginner. We have a lot of triathletes who are not good swimmier, but are very fit athletes. They learn fast. They follow instructions quickly and can adapt to a good swimming pace quickly.

....the only real critique I got was that I wasn't kicking from the hips. I was told that I was bending my knees too much.... I am certainly not powering through any of it because I am way out of shape right now.... Sounds like the instructor nailed it. With too big a kick you may as well tie a boat anchor around your waist. You want a long, slender "vessel shape" (you will likely hear that term again while getting coached). Think: "12-meter class yacht"... not "barge". Everything will get easier as your physical conditioning improves. Your martial arts background is likely going to help you a lot. Because of your comfort with crossing open water, I'd not be inclined to call you a beginner, but from what you've described, I bet there are some really nervous lifeguards watching you... especially if you are bigger than they are. It sounds like Patience and Practice are what you need most right now. Again, some good coaching is going to go a long way too. Most instructors/coaches working with someone at your current level are going to single out your biggest flaw and work on that. Entry-level technique classes (and they are ALL about technique, at all levels) are likely going to give you one task at a time... that is how it works. Advanced classes are different... and then there is everything in-between. If you get a privately coached session, you can press them for a list of tips, but a good coach will know how to best address your needs. If you find them pressing you in a different direction than what you want or expect, it is likely because they know what is best for you. But without a recommendation, it may take some of your time to determine the coaches skill level. Anyone who has been on a swim team since they were 10 years old however, and been coaching a year or more, will likely know what is best for you. I admire your courage. And believe me, anyone who knows is going to do the same. You have a lot of good ideas and drive... and having the right motivation is probably 90% of what you need now... plus putting in the time in the water. Your current level of enthusiasm and motivation is going to take you a long way. When folks see that for themselves, they will respect and admire it. You have a fair amount of work ahead of you though, so be patient... and practice. ;) If I saw someone like you at an event like the JLG one for your son, I'd possibly approach them for a chat, and end up giving them some pointers on the spot. I've learned to be cautious though, in regards to approaching folks to give free advice. I usually wait to be asked now. More than once though, I've offered to give folks 5-10 minutes of my time... after I've finished my practice. I'm easy to interrupt for 30sec. or so, but most folks are swimming timed intervals, so be careful about chatting folks up that are in the middle of a practice session. If you are diplomatic about it though, you may very well be able to chat some folks up and get some free pointers. Nothing is going to be a substitute for a structured coached session though, either group or private, and that sounds like your best bet right now. I would not worry too much about long posts, it happens... obviously, I use my fair share of bandwidth. Your initial question was fairly direct, but covered a lot of territory, so that was likely the reason for minimal responses. One thing I can assure you, the more precise your question, the more responses you will get. If you visit this BBS enough, you will begin to recognize the pattern, as well as quickly single out the threads and posters who can benefit you the most. I strongly encourage you to keep visiting this BBS. One good thing to know how to use here is the Advanced Search option... available as a link at the top of every page here. As for more details on the "center of buoyancy" lesson, try this first: View these posts / threads: keeping feet above water .. plssssssss help ... - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums Crossover Kick - should I lose it? - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums Do some people actually have buoyant legs? - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums Those are three examples of where I've talked about "buoyancy" here before... there are 7 others... here is how to find them all: Using the advanced search option... enter: keyword = buoyancy user = bud Show Results as = posts leave everything else as the default setting If you still want specific details after that, post so here, and I'll address it in time. Right now I'm ready to move on. :D It sounds like you are in the Southern Pacific LMSC... the LMSC (Local Masters Swim Committee) page for your area is a really good place to start to find individual and group coached sessions. If you take the "Places to Swim" link there, you should have lots of choices. Check out the SoPac LMSC web link there too, for more info. You can also try posting an inquiry at the SoPac LMSC forum here. If you get a private session 1x/wk, and practice that 3x/wk, in 2-3 months you should feel really comfortable signing up for a regular group coached session. That does not mean you cannot go to a group coached session now... in fact... I recommend it. Most teams/clubs welcome swimmers of all levels. Most also allow one or more free sessions as a "try before you buy" sort of thing. (Most I know anyway, I'm not familiar with your area.) Visiting several USMS affiliated clubs in your area will teach you a lot, let you meet some coaches, as well as a lot of great swimmers. You may progress faster with the private coach / self-practice route, it that is your preference. But you will likely progress as fast or faster, meet a lot more folks, and have a lot more fun with a coached group (team/club). Swimmers in general are a very laid back bunch... I think it has to do with the medium they exorcise in. If you visit some local clubs, and especially if you join one, you will almost for sure find the help you want, easily. Keep us posted on your progress... you will likely find a lot of encouragement here if you visit often enough. Whatever you do, just don't forget to keep it FUN! ;)

Sounds like you got a great deal. This BBS can be very helpful at times, both observing and asking questions. Hope you stick around. :) Have Fun! :)