team scoring

Michael, so what do you suggest (other than the Pacific propsal)? Do we run two completely separate divisions "Club" and "Open" and within each of these have small, medium and large designations..then within those 3 divisions calculate the number of splashes vs. actual team registration numbers.. We live in a "free market" society correct? So tell me that all club teams....and especially those that are usually in contention don't have swimmers on their rosters that are from other states/cities?....I think KPN might be bringing in a few points for San Diego that Hawaii might like to have...so does that mean SD should not be allowed to compete as a club? Not in my opinion..she should swim with whom she wants to. Here's some news...the real world is NOT "fair"...so lets take the solution that is the simplist and benefits the most while at the same time helping to get more people interested in competing....? Any ideas..in less than 3 sentences? Lets see you want me to respond to your three paragraphs in three sentences when what has been going on here might be worth three chapters. What I think many in Pacific are interested in is a way to compete on a reasonable way. There is no way that individual local clubs can compete with swimmers from an entire state. One thing that you missed at convention was the entire Pacific delegation wearing a bright yellow shirt that said on the front "Bigger pond, bigger fish" and on the back "Pacific Masters Swim team coming to a nationals near you." There has to be a way to correct this imbalance between the regional clubs and the single clubs. It should also be said that L2 while proposed by Pacific, was supported by HOD members from throughout the Federation. With over 60% of the HOD support change, I believe that there will be change at the next convention. There are two elephants in the middle of the room that no one wants to talk about. What would happen if many of the clubs in Pacific (or Southern Pacific) decided to join together to form a consolidated team. It would not have to be all of Pacific, just imagine Walnut Creek, The Olympic Club, USF, Stanford, Sierra Nevada Masters, Tualomne County Aquatic Masters and Tamalpias forming a consolidated club for competing at nationals. Where the rubber hits the road, is what happens with relays that makes an impact on the scoring. People talk about going to nationals and then comment that it is only how they swim at the meet that counts, but it is the relays were more excitement is generated and more points scored. If you are going to earn a banner at nationals, the club will have to get swimmers to compete in relays and score points. In my fun April first memo, I listed one relay that would have a chance of taking first place in a relay (Laura Val, Leianne Crittenden, Suzanne Heim-Bowen and Debbie Meyer Webber). I could create "B" relay that could give them problems. I think we could create at least four Pacific relays in most of the age divisions that could be competitive. And it would not just be Pacific, Southern Pacific if they consolidated a bunch of teams would field very strong teams. Think of Paul Carter and Jim McConica on the same relay. Awesome! How competitive would Pacific be? If you totaled up all the points that Pacific scored in Federal Way, Pacific would have beaten the host PNA by over 500 points and bested Colorado by 2000 points at the recent Short Course Nationals. Pacific would have finished second to Woodland Masters in Houston at the Long Course Nationals I am not saying that with a sense of braggadocio, you can total up the points. It is what it is. Teams rightfully take pride in their accomplishments. To break a national record is something that teams will work hard for. Pacific has about 23% of the USMS national membership and has had that for quite a while. With our very competitive swimmers we should have about 23% of the relay records, Pacific has about 17% of the relay records (if I counted correctly); New England Masters with 3.7% of the membership has 7% of the relay records. I dont know exactly why, but I would hypothesize that the more swimmers one can draw from, it would increase your ability create a fast team. The other elephant that no one is talking about, is when do you force LMSCs to form local teams. At over 2000, there should be enough clubs in Colorado to form competitive teams - the same for New England. If we believe that clubs are the way to grow the organization, then at some point we are going to have to be sure that local clubs have the ability to do well at Nationals. If we do not have a way for local clubs to do well at nationals, then we are saying that regional clubs are the way to go. At this point having swimmers from others states is not an issue. If Team Tyr and KPN and other groups start forming clubs to compete and break records it may have to be addressed, but now if Team Tyr finished 89th, it sounds like some friends got together and had a good time (which to me is a good thing). (BTW San Diego is a regional club.) My big concern is breaking the scoring into two divisions. If the HOD believes that SML in each division is the best way to go, that is fine with me. If it is just two Division - no subcategories - I have no problem with that at this time. If I just put on my Pacific hat, it would be fun to watch team Pacific. How many records could we break. I put on my USMS hat, and I dont think it would be a good thing. I will agree with you life in not fair, but we do have a problem that we will have to address. I am quite sure the HOD will address this issue in a way that gives the single clubs a way to do well at nationals. Sorry to take more than three sentences. :-) michael

Michael, so what do you suggest (other than the Pacific propsal)? Do we run two completely separate divisions "Club" and "Open" and within each of these have small, medium and large designations..then within those 3 divisions calculate the number of splashes vs. actual team registration numbers.. We live in a "free market" society correct? So tell me that all club teams....and especially those that are usually in contention don't have swimmers on their rosters that are from other states/cities?....I think KPN might be bringing in a few points for San Diego that Hawaii might like to have...so does that mean SD should not be allowed to compete as a club? Not in my opinion..she should swim with whom she wants to. Here's some news...the real world is NOT "fair"...so lets take the solution that is the simplist and benefits the most while at the same time helping to get more people interested in competing....? Any ideas..in less than 3 sentences? Lets see you want me to respond to your three paragraphs in three sentences when what has been going on here might be worth three chapters. What I think many in Pacific are interested in is a way to compete on a reasonable way. There is no way that individual local clubs can compete with swimmers from an entire state. One thing that you missed at convention was the entire Pacific delegation wearing a bright yellow shirt that said on the front "Bigger pond, bigger fish" and on the back "Pacific Masters Swim team coming to a nationals near you." There has to be a way to correct this imbalance between the regional clubs and the single clubs. It should also be said that L2 while proposed by Pacific, was supported by HOD members from throughout the Federation. With over 60% of the HOD support change, I believe that there will be change at the next convention. There are two elephants in the middle of the room that no one wants to talk about. What would happen if many of the clubs in Pacific (or Southern Pacific) decided to join together to form a consolidated team. It would not have to be all of Pacific, just imagine Walnut Creek, The Olympic Club, USF, Stanford, Sierra Nevada Masters, Tualomne County Aquatic Masters and Tamalpias forming a consolidated club for competing at nationals. Where the rubber hits the road, is what happens with relays that makes an impact on the scoring. People talk about going to nationals and then comment that it is only how they swim at the meet that counts, but it is the relays were more excitement is generated and more points scored. If you are going to earn a banner at nationals, the club will have to get swimmers to compete in relays and score points. In my fun April first memo, I listed one relay that would have a chance of taking first place in a relay (Laura Val, Leianne Crittenden, Suzanne Heim-Bowen and Debbie Meyer Webber). I could create "B" relay that could give them problems. I think we could create at least four Pacific relays in most of the age divisions that could be competitive. And it would not just be Pacific, Southern Pacific if they consolidated a bunch of teams would field very strong teams. Think of Paul Carter and Jim McConica on the same relay. Awesome! How competitive would Pacific be? If you totaled up all the points that Pacific scored in Federal Way, Pacific would have beaten the host PNA by over 500 points and bested Colorado by 2000 points at the recent Short Course Nationals. Pacific would have finished second to Woodland Masters in Houston at the Long Course Nationals I am not saying that with a sense of braggadocio, you can total up the points. It is what it is. Teams rightfully take pride in their accomplishments. To break a national record is something that teams will work hard for. Pacific has about 23% of the USMS national membership and has had that for quite a while. With our very competitive swimmers we should have about 23% of the relay records, Pacific has about 17% of the relay records (if I counted correctly); New England Masters with 3.7% of the membership has 7% of the relay records. I dont know exactly why, but I would hypothesize that the more swimmers one can draw from, it would increase your ability create a fast team. The other elephant that no one is talking about, is when do you force LMSCs to form local teams. At over 2000, there should be enough clubs in Colorado to form competitive teams - the same for New England. If we believe that clubs are the way to grow the organization, then at some point we are going to have to be sure that local clubs have the ability to do well at Nationals. If we do not have a way for local clubs to do well at nationals, then we are saying that regional clubs are the way to go. At this point having swimmers from others states is not an issue. If Team Tyr and KPN and other groups start forming clubs to compete and break records it may have to be addressed, but now if Team Tyr finished 89th, it sounds like some friends got together and had a good time (which to me is a good thing). (BTW San Diego is a regional club.) My big concern is breaking the scoring into two divisions. If the HOD believes that SML in each division is the best way to go, that is fine with me. If it is just two Division - no subcategories - I have no problem with that at this time. If I just put on my Pacific hat, it would be fun to watch team Pacific. How many records could we break. I put on my USMS hat, and I dont think it would be a good thing. I will agree with you life in not fair, but we do have a problem that we will have to address. I am quite sure the HOD will address this issue in a way that gives the single clubs a way to do well at nationals. Sorry to take more than three sentences. :-) michael