Request for LONG distance training (?)

'Laineybug' I do think that many masters clubs, do not help the "newbies" as much as they need. Some "newbies", really need a learn to swim program, before they swim the coached workouts. It is hard to help though. I coach a few "newbie" swimmers, where, i give them progressive drills and swims. I have had some success. My swimmers have good balance now, and most can breathe well to either side. I watch them and give feedback often. I also get in the water and demonstrate every few weeks. I have less than 20 swimmers to coach so I have the time in a session to do this. However, in most masters clubs, there is one coach to many ( 100 + ) swimmers. It is natural to concentrate on your best lanes, especially the ones who race in meets. An assistant coach could help on the "learner" lanes, and some clubs will do this. This site and the USMS in general are very helpfull to all. There is almost no EGO with the people who post here. They will actually spend time trying to help. Contrast this with the UK site, where EGO is HUGE and most posts end up with people "dissing" you. My experience is that few there would bother to give you long carefully thought out replies to your questions. Also it is hard to help a swimmer when you have not seen them swim. There may be stroke flaws and flexibility issues that need correcting before setting harder swim sets. As a coach you are guessing as to what the swimmer needs.

Thanks Gareth. It doesn't look like there are any short cuts in distance training. For the Masters swimmer, the question is how much (yardage) is enough? I suppose the answer is, that depends.

Thanks to all for the interest. I didn't want to start a tempest in a teapot or make extra work for anyone, but I've often wondered if I was the only one finding that "traditional" workouts come up a bit wanting for longer distances. Since I have coached at a high level in Athletics (aka Track and Field), I can easily periodize my workouts to meet the physiological needs of long efforts. However, my observation is that experienced swimming coaches know a lot of efficiencies, and have better variety of workouts, than someone from a different background, regardless of prior experience. That, plus one gets tired of one's own cooking, so to speak. Again, thanks to all and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of this. -LBJ

I think all the participants here have made valid points about how masters swimming falls short of helping some people in some way, or how difficult it would be to do better. Elaine, you are precisely right about Masters focusing a bit too much attention on the best swimmers. Pick up a copy of Swim magazine, and it's Karlyn Pipes this, and Jim McConica that. Gee, do you think that maybe there might be some interesting stories amongst the 100's of other people at a meet who are no threat to win their age group? You bet there are, BUT digging out those stories takes more time and staff than Swim has available. It's easy to talk about records; you can get that stuff off of the results posted on the web. Real reporting requires resources our niche magazine does not have available. Same story if you go to most masters clubs. The workout is really designed for the fastest swimmers, and what other people do is a watered down derrivative of that workout. The supreme irony of that is that the coaches focus on the best folks, but they need the attention the least. The people who really need coaching and guidance are in the slow lane, and sometimes they give up, or never come in the first place, because they think they need to be pretty good already to be worthy of a coach's time. How crazy is that?! On the other hand, the fastest swimmers also tend to be the ones who show up for workout most regularly. You ignore the wishes of your most reliable customers at your peril. USMS has tried numerous times to reach out to the "fitness" or "lap" swimmer and offer them more services for their membership dues. Problem is that many of those people's idea of swimming is: show up for lap swim, do the same distance at the same pace with the same technique (no matter how good or bad it is), repeat tomorrow at the same time. And please DON'T challenge my assumptions about the right way to swim. Getting that herd of cats to show up for or participate in anything outside of their comfort zone can be a real challenge. And finally (since I have gored everyone else's ox today), I find the suggestion that there are not enough workouts for the purely distance swimmer somewhat curious. Mostly because in my experience, most masters workouts turn into 95% aerobic work (which is what distance people need) as people chase someone else's interval. There is a mind set that the only way to train is to maximize yards swum, and the faster the interval the better. Most age group, high school, college programs (i.e. for those who are serious about swimming their best in a few weeks time) also work on stroke technique, sprinting, or simply higher quality swims with more rest in between, i.e. they work on lots of other areas. But in a Masters workout, I can't count the number of times (on any one of the several teams I have joined as the Navy moves me hither, thither and yon) the coach gives us a drill set, and some gonzo decides this is his chance to keep up with the big boys, and wants to lead the lane on a touch and go interval, completely defeating the purpose of the set. Heck I have been on teams where the coach has been let go because, as I interpret it, his creative get out of your comfort zone workouts did not satisfy the aerobocops' need for more yards, man, just give me more yards. There, having got my psychotic episode off my chest, what's my point? Well, to the extent I have one, I would say that there are ample OPPORTUNITIES for masters swimming to offer all sorts of new and interesting experiences to its members. However, seizing any one of those opportunities will usually not be easy or cheap, and we have limited resources. We should always ask ourselves "why not?" At the same time, we should not expect the elusive "they" to take on an initiative for us, while we sit back and enjoy the benefits. "They" is us, and we need to do it our own bad selves. Also, we need to appreciate the fine work a whole lot of selfless volunteers put into OUR organization, and thank them at the slightest provocation. All grousing aside, we really are living in the golden age of aquatics for mature athletes, and it is good for us to look up every once in a while and appreciate how lucky we are. End of homily, Matt

Peter Crumbine (USMS Long Distance Committee chair) reported that his committee would get together some workouts geared towards open water events and post them to the web. It may take a few weeks to get this organized, but it’s coming. In the mean time, you may wish to look at the Open Water Swimming Clinic Manual on the USMS Long Distance page www.usms.org/longdist While it doesn’t contain any workouts, it does contain a number of drills and other valuable advice for novice and experienced open water swimmers.

Well, Eliane a lot of the workouts don't fit the middle aged and senior groups. I even swam years ago as a kid and lost a great deal of my speed. I can't do the other three strokes at 1:50 intervals since my fastest times are at 1:38 or 1:39 now in them and to do lower 1:40's I need more rest at least at a 2:30 interval. I just get ideas from the workouts and apply them to myself. Like you I swim on my own since its gives me more flexabilty.

i used to swim many 1500 breastrokes sets and about 4 months ago decided to try freestyle,same distance,needless to say i struggled at first as front crawl seemed to zap my energy much faster than the breastroke i had done for 3-4years previous,although i often threw a few front crawl sets in as well previously.How i got better was to basically pace myself.I had to stop myself from swimming the first 100m as fast as i could and i did this by slowing maybe to half speed.In the first few weeks it was very hard and i could only manage 500m unbroken sets,but perceverence succeeded and i now swim 1500m freestyle at perhaps not the fastest time of 31mins,but i do this with no rests also i havent introduced flip turns that i used to do in breastroke but plan on doing this soon ...maybe i'll get down to 25 mins with these incorporated.I'm no expert but i hope this info helps.

I think Elaine has a good point and I'm glad she brought it up. I liked the workouts by Michael Collins and found them very productive. I have just unsubscribed from the workouts that replaced his because the intervals are unrealistic for me, and I don't need to see that every week. I think I can say for a lot of other swimmers they would be unrealistic as well. Sure I can modify, but it is discouraging to see the intervals that are expected before I do so. It would be more inclusive if three interval options would be provided, and how hard would that be to do? I pay my dues and I swim on a team. I think swimmers and coaches who post could consider the percentage of people they are reaching when they suggest that 2:30 is an interval for the 200, or that 100 backstroke on 1:10 gives the swimmer a lot of rest. Yes many people are included in that. But many are not.

Originally posted by effi I think swimmers and coaches who post could consider the percentage of people they are reaching when they suggest that 2:30 is an interval for the 200, or that 100 backstroke on 1:10 gives the swimmer a lot of rest. Yes many people are included in that. But many are not. Good point. I agree, and I find that I like Mo's workouts best - she includes rest intervals. Like you, I find impossible intervals discouraging and a turn-off.

but you have 3 choices! ive been watching this forum for some time and this post, of all of them, has irked me to the point of having to respond. i do any one of the three workouts depending on how much time i have and modify each one accordingly. its not hard! if i do mo's workout i just modify the times or the distance to make the set easier or harder for me. same with jeremy and nate. nate's workouts seem to be geared more towards the competitive swimmer but anyone can do them. if you cant make a 100 back on 1:10 then what can you make it on? 1:40? fine. i certainly couldnt make a 1:10 100 back but i can do it in 1:45 and come in on 1:38. This gives me 7 seconds rest which for me is enough, so i modify the set. what's the big deal? if you are a competitive swimmer, im not - too old and slow, but if you are then you might benefit from doing his intervals. but if you are not a competitive swimmer, either don't do his workouts or simply modify them. or take a combination of all three! do jeremy's warmup, mo's main set and half of one of nate's sets at your interval. talk about variety! thanks to all three for taking time out of their busy schedules to give us these weekly workouts. i for one will continue to modify as necessary and hopefully one day, i wont have to! ;-)