Water Temp v wetsuit

I have stopped wearing goggles in the salt water if my swim is 2 miles or less. I find I can sight and navigate better. I tend to swim in clean waters though. One less thing to worry about. My main peeve with the wetsuits is taking them off. sounds like you've acclimated your eyes to the salt. is that for events or for saltwater training swims too? and are your eyes irritated/red afterwards?

evmo, just to cut to the chase, or possibly cut to the chase, does your argument boil down to tradition (which i would *not* consider to be an invalid argument)?

Once upon a time... I hate everything. I hate everything more! I hate everything infinity. I hate everything infinity plus one! I beer. I beer too! And they all lived happily ever after.

sounds like you've acclimated your eyes to the salt. is that for events or for saltwater training swims too? and are your eyes irritated/red afterwards? Slightly red and irritated but it passes very quickly. I did a 5K swim without goggles last year and by the time I was finished my eyes were just about closed with the irritation, and it actually hurt. But for 2.5 miles or less I basically never wear goggles in the salt water any longer. I asked my Eye doc and she thought it was reasonable. I guess our tears aren't so much different from salt water as you might think.

I don't care that a RD sets rules to increase participation. At the end of the day, the more people that participate in my sport means that more events will be put on, which means that I get to race more. Races that don't get support die. In my naive and ideal world, people will not enter races for which they are not prepared.Excellent point. Assuming an objective is to get more people participating in the sport or as the USMS mission states “To promote health, wellness, fitness and competition for adults through swimming” then let’s do what we can to get more people in the water. the bicycle analogy is encumber by the fact that a bike is required for cycling, whereas a wetsuit is not required for swimming.I agree the bicycle analogy falls short, so let’s go with the shoe analogy. In most tri’s shoes are not required for the run. However shoes (like wetsuits) do provide safety and competitive advantage to those who wear them. And with the exception of the Barefoot Running Society, I doubt there are many folks who grouse about them shoed runners. All I'm saying is that they allow swimmers to "swim" in conditions they are not trained for. This is a conversation we have been having for a long time. The fundamental question behind the statement is, is this a good or bad thing? Is it a bad thing if I can get people to come swim in the lake at 55F, in a wetsuit, by telling them that if I can do it without a wetsuit you can do it with one? It gets swimmers in the water and lets me train; win/win! Also, if adding a wetsuit division to an open water race makes it economical viable for the race director is this a bad thing? On the other hand I completely support events that choose to maintain elite standards. Part of the challenge of swims such as Lac Memphramagog, the English Channel, the Irish Channel, Manhattan Island, Catalina Channel is cold water preparation. In fact, I’d be disappointed if the CSA started giving recognition to people swimming the English Channel in a wetsuit.

I dislike the word because it can connote backwardness, narrow-mindedness, and intolerance... but yes, that's at least part of it. I am not a traditionalist in most aspects of my life, but in sports I think it often makes sense. Should we allow aluminum bats in major league baseball? Should we lower the rim to 8 feet in basketball? I would certainly benefit from a paddles-and-buoy event in pool swimming, but I'd never seriously argue for the establishment of one. If "tradition" is good enough for Kevin Murphy and Nick Adams (CS&PF), Mike Read and Julie Bradshaw (CSA), Forrest Nelson and Carol Sing (CCSF), Morty Berger (MIMS & Ederle), Phil Rush (Cook Strait), etc. etc. -- and all those who came before them - then it's good enough for me. But no one is arguing to change anything. What's the fear about (lowering the rim, adding paddles... those things aren't happening)? I get tradition. I get that OW swimmers are proud of their non wetsuit alcatraz swims, and I agree that it's more difficult, takes more preparation, more willingness to be uncomfortable... No one is taking that away from you. Every open water swim I do that allows wetsuits either (1) renders the wearer ineligible for an award or (2) has separate divisions. Some open water swims - Alcatraz - I wear a wetsuit (along with the huge majority). Some open water swims - everything in so cal between July and September - I don't. Those that don't want to wear wetsuits, don't wear wetsuits. I find it's quite a big ocean out there and there's plenty of room for everyone. I guess I just am not sure why people who only do OW swimming care what people who do tris -- different sport, different rules, different governing bodies -- wear in the water (although I think it's ironic that chicken admits to wearing a wetsuit in a triathlon while railing against their use simply because he didn't want to get beat out of the water, that's why 99.99% of triathletes wear them). Unless, of course, it's merely to say that OW swimmers are "better" in whatever sense of the word. Which is cool, it's human nature to do that after all. In the cycling world, roadies bag on mountain bikers bag on fixie riders bag on roadies bag on.... and on and on. Bt it's all just riding a bike after all. It's all rather silly in the end. Guess people just like to pump up "their" crowd and excoriate "the other" crowd.

I'm not talking about short-distance OW races with separate categories. I'm talking about marathon swimming (in particular, solo marathon swimming). Your confusion of the two seems to indicate you have no idea what you're talking about with regard to the latter. Wow. Yes, clearly I don't have a clue what I am talking about and you are much wiser than me. And proved my point better than I could have argued it. Thanks for the enlightening discussion

It could, Bottom line: If you allow people the use of performance-enhancing devices, they will be used. In deciding which devices to allow, and which to ban, it helps to consult the history and spirit of the sport. Does the device conflict with this history and spirit in a fundamental way? On this basis neoprene caps should be allowed. I'm sure Ederle and others would have used them if they were available, and would find it comical that they are banned by all channel associations. As a side note: I did a bit of research in this area and the conclusion drawn by scientific studies is that it helps retain heat upon first immersion before the body shuts off blood flow to your skin. This is of course a critical time with regards to cold shock. On this basis I think it should be considered a safety device. Otherwise, you lose the same amount of heat per square inch as any other part of the body (although I think there may be one exception). There is one other time it helps, and that is when you first get out of the water when warm blood returns to the scalp. Again acting as a safety device. This contradicted everything I had learned in mountaineering as well. For illustrative purposes, uncover 60% of your body, but make sure your head and neck are covered. Now go out into a blizzard and tell me how that works for you.

I take geog's point in bumping the old threads to mean: It has happened before, and it will happen again. So it has, and so it will. I'm sure it's bad for profits and media spectacle, but as long as: - there are still OWS events (excluding tris) that don't separate wetsuits & skins (and btw ChrisM, in my experience, outside of USMS events this is still the norm); - the desire to maintain this distinction is mischaracterized as elitist; - people who swim the English Channel in wetsuits are eligible for the International Marathon Swimming Hall of Fame (no joke)... ... I will continue to fight the good fight. ChrisM, I'm sorry for being short with you earlier. If you're interested in learning more about marathon swimming, I invite you to check out marathonswimmers.org. As long as you don't start off with the phrase "holier than thou," like you did here, I think you'll actually find it quite a friendly group. Likewise, I'll refrain from trolling Slowtwitch or BeginnerTri with all of my antiquated notions.

Should we lower the rim to 8 feet in basketball? Absolutely, but you can't play unless you are under 6 ft