Fortress' impressive three world record performance over the weekend made me think of this topic. Obviously the things she's doing are working well for the events she likes to swim. She concentrates on SDKs, fast swimming with lots of rest and drylands to aid in explosiveness. Long aerobic sets just aren't a part of her training regime, from what I've seen.
Almost every organized training group I've swum with, on the other hand, focuses on long aerobic sets, short rest, not a whole lot of fast stuff, etc. Basically the polar opposite of how Fortress trains. In my opinion this probably works pretty well for those who swim longer events, but really does very little for sprinters. The sprint events are almost always the most popular events at meets, so why do people choose to train aerobically? I think there are a number of factors at play. There's the much maligned triathletes. There's those who don't compete and "just want to get their yardage in." There's a historical precedent of lots of yardage being the way to go.
So what do you all think? How does you or your team train? I know lots of regular bloggers here DO train differently than my perception of the norm. Examples include Ande, Chris S. and Speedo. Are too many masters teams stuck in a training regime that is not at all what many of their swimmers need to get faster?
Former Member
Everyone's gotta swim the first 50.
If you don't have a fast first 50, you won't have a fast 100.
If you don't have a fast 100, you won't have a fast 200.
If you don't have a fast 200....and so on!
Different types of Sprinting - pure power generation vs. easy speed vs. reducing your rate of decreasing speed!
Very well put. Endurance means a low rate of speed decrease. The faster you are, the more speed you have to lose. You can get better in endurance races by being a faster sprinter.
None of what you or Thrashing Slug listed is necessarily garbage - it's aerobic swimming. Garbage yardage is swimming without purpose.*
my definition of garbage yardage involves flotsam and jetsam (and maybe a few warm spots too)
And, again, race pace work is NOT just for sprinters. For example, while I understand Salo's sprinters do zero distance work and long aerobic sets, his D swimmers don't do that much short rest stuff either.
Paul's program sounds great to me. I wish my team trained that way.
Yesterday I missed the morning workout so I had to come in later and train alone. I chose to ignore what was on the board, which was a bunch of typical zero rest "garbage" stuff like 50s on :45, 100s on 1:30, etc. I'm training for the 500 free, 50 fly, and 100 free, so I did the following:
Warm up: 400S, 300P, 200K, 100IM
Set 1:
3 x 500 free, broken at the 100 with 10s rest
#1 swim with paddles, #2 swim with fins, #3 swim naked medium hard, try to pace consistently. I took as much rest as I wanted between 500s. It was probably about a minute and a half to two minutes, and it felt like a guilty pleasure. When our coach gives us 500s they're usually on an interval that allows 10 to 20 seconds of rest, if that.
Set 2:
2 X 25 back flutter kick, 2 x 25 backstroke swim.
2 X 25 fly kick, 2 X 25 fly
2 x 50 back kick, 2 X 50 back swim (fins)
2 x 50 fly kick, 2 X 50 fly (fins)
25s were on 1:00, 50s on 1:30. Then I did 2 more 50s fly, finless, to work on technique. No interval on those, just focused on getting my head down early, shoulder shrug, and undulation.
Cooldown was an easy 400 pull with paddles. Focus on body roll, hip snap, and symmetry.
This ended up being a pretty long workout but I felt much better at the end than I do during the typical no-rest stuff. My technique felt consistent throughout, even though I was tired. I guess I am a lazy sprinter at heart.
One week...
Right, but my question is how much all-out swimming per session? I would guess somewhere between 500-1000 yards or meters would be a good starting point?
Right, but my question is how much all-out swimming per session? I would guess somewhere between 50-1000 yards or meters would be a good starting point?
I generally do no more than one race-pace event per workout. Lactate sets like 5x200 on 8:00 are not race-pace, though they're close to it. You can do lactate sets more often than once a week. In college we'd repeat a cycle roughly like this every 2-3 weeks:
Lactate set #1 this Tuesday
Distance swimmers do 4x500 on 12:00
Stroke/Mid-D swimmers do 5x200 on 8:00
Sprinters do 5x100 on 6:00
Lactate set #2 this Thursday
Distance swimmers do 5x200 on 8:00
Stroke/Mid-D swimmers do 5x100 on 6:00
Sprinters do 5x50 on 4:00?
Lactate set #3 next Tuesday
Distance swimmers do 5x100 on 6:00
Stroke/Mid-D swimmers do 5x50 on 4:00?
Sprinters do 5x25 on 3:00?
I don't really remember what the intervals were for the 50's and 25's since I was in the distance lane for 4 years. It was a tradition for at least one of the sprinters to reappear on the pool deck fully clothed while we still had swimming to do. Towards the end of each set, we did get to spread out into the empty lanes... :badday:
Right, but my question is how much all-out swimming per session? I would guess somewhere between 50-1000 yards or meters would be a good starting point?
Below is a VERY simplified overview of what we are discussing....although the 1:1 ratio they mention for EN3 to me should be anywhere from 3:1 to 10:1 depending on a number of factors.
One thing not being discussed much on this thread is the need to practice at speeds FASTER than your goal race pace times...I think its s critical part of training and something we use fins and paddles for along with bungee cords.
PS
Minimum Endurance Pace (EN1) - almost any distance, with very low rest (less than :30 seconds) between repeats, swum at a sustainable, fairly easy pace. This kind of work set takes 15 to 60 minutes (or more). It helps to build base yardage and promotes recovery. An example: 6 x 500 yards at EN1 pace with :15 seconds rest between repeats or 6 x 500 @ :15 rest, EN1 pace.
Threshold Endurance Pace (EN2) - usually distances less than 500 yards with up to :60 seconds rest between repeats, swum at a pace faster than EN1 (we'll look at how much faster a little bit later). This type of set take between 20 and 45 (or more) minutes to complete and should increase your ability to perform aerobic work without causing a build-up of waste products in the muscles, but should still be followed by a day of easy work to restore muscle glycogen stores. An example: 8 x 175 @ :20 rest, EN2 pace.
VO2Max Endurance Pace (EN3) - usually distances less than 300 yards with rest somewhere between :20 seconds up to a time equal to the amount of work completed (a 1:1 work to rest ratio) at a pace faster than both EN1 and EN2 (be patient - we'll get to it). You will probably not be able to hold this pace for much longer than 30 minutes. This kind of work can simulate the same overall affects of a race. It's very hard work and should also be followed by some type of recovery workout to restore muscle glycogen stores. An example: 8 x 100 @ :45 rest, EN3 pace.
One thing not being discussed much on this thread is the need to practice at speeds FASTER than your goal race pace times...I think its s critical part of training and something we use fins and paddles for along with bungee cords.
100% agree.
...At the same time, I have have known quite a few excellent distance swimmers who do not have a fast 50, or even a very fast 200 (Jeff Erwin is a masters swimmer around my age who fits this bill). Many of the best ones never lifted seriously either and aren't that strong; they just never, ever seem to get tired....The best distance swimmers I know do not "reduce their rate of speed reduction" at all, in fact they seem to get faster and stronger as the race progresses.Chris, very good points. And, Paul, while I agree with general sentiment that d-folks need to work more on speed than they typically might they need to do, I'll offer a counter-point (n=1) from my own experience.
I can sprint as fast now in the 50 as I did back in my younger days (e.g., my 22.1 in 2008 was faster than I ever went in my teens or 20s)
I was almost as fast in my 100 (e.g., 48.1 vs. 47-mid in my late teens/20s)
By the time you get to my 200, though, my best time was 3 seconds slower now than then ... 500 was close to 20 seconds slower ... 1000 was 40 seconds and mile was 76 seconds slower.
As a Masters swimmer, if I really want to get my 500/1000/1650 anywhere near the times I did in the past, I think the answer is going to be two-fold: more volume, more high intensity / short rest aerobic style sets. The energy systems, stroke rate, stroke length, kick are completely different for me in a 50/100 vs. a 500-1650. I happen to be doing probably close to 100% more sprint style work over the last few years than I ever did back in my prime training days, but I am under no illusion that that kind of training is helping my 500 to 1650.
Put it this way: to get back to my best ever 500 time, I need to be able to hold a 53 pace per 100. I did a set of 20 x 50 recently on 2:00, with most of the freestyles being 24+/25- and a few 26s, all well under what would needed to be a 53 500 pace ... but I don't think that helped my 500 at all ... of course, if I do end up swimming the 500 on Sunday at Paul's pool and do something miraculous, I will stand corrected ;)
Chris, very good points. And, Paul, while I agree with general sentiment that d-folks need to work more on speed than they typically might they need to do, I'll offer a counter-point (n=1) from my own experience.
I can sprint as fast now in the 50 as I did back in my younger days (e.g., my 22.1 in 2008 was faster than I ever went in my teens or 20s)
I was almost as fast in my 100 (e.g., 48.1 vs. 47-mid in my late teens/20s)
By the time you get to my 200, though, my best time was 3 seconds slower now than then ... 500 was close to 20 seconds slower ... 1000 was 40 seconds and mile was 76 seconds slower.
I really didn't want to get caught up in this thread because once I got started it'd be hard for me to stop. This topic is the core of Bob Strand and my Super Session clinics and I've been writing a column on this topic quarterly for our LMSC newsletter entitled "Training to Race."
I just wanted to make one point about your last post, Patrick. From my perspective, if you trained differently in college (i.e. with an emphasis on sprints) your recent 22.1 might be a whole lot slower than your best college 50. You were able to match that time because you didn't approach your speed potential in colleege due to the way you trained then. Make any sense?
Anyway, looking forward to meeting you in person in Mesa. I've always enjoyed reading your posts.
Rich
I just wanted to make one point about your last post, Patrick. From my perspective, if you trained differently in college (i.e. with an emphasis on sprints) your recent 22.1 might be a whole lot slower than your best college 50. You were able to match that time because you didn't approach your speed potential in colleege due to the way you trained then. Make any sense?Yes, it does. I trained almost exclusively for the 500-1650 in high school in a very high volume yardage club; we did more quality work at Texas, but the distance guys (where I trained all except for my senior year) still did some pretty decent volume of training. I will say this, my best 400 free / 400 IM (and subsequent 500 free / 400 IM) times came when I trained one summer in the IM lane ... but, then my 1000 and 1650 were well off previous bests.
I am a firm proponent of training to race and I think that most Masters swimmer will do better (since most race 50 - 200 distances) by adding in a lot more quality than they do today.
Where I think I differ, though, is for folks who really want to train for the 1000 and 1650: for those, I think the training to race philosophy is pretty well matched by high intensity (not all out), low rest sets. For example, if I want to be getting well under 10:00 in my 1000, I'd better be doing lots of repeat 100s on a 1:05 or even 1:00 interval ... doing 10 x 100 on 4:00 all-out, IMHO, is not going to benefit my 1000 time.
Anyway, looking forward to meeting you in person in Mesa. I've always enjoyed reading your posts.
RichThanks, and me to to meeting you.
