Myth #5. The reason we pull freestyle underwater with a high elbow is to increase the surface area of our arm.
Forgive me. In case you hadn't noticed that I am preaching high elbows a lot, there is a reason. At the end of each camp at the Race Club I always end by prioritizing the 10 or so points that I make to improve speed and efficiency. The top three are 1) High elbow 2) High elbow and 3) High elbow. Dropping the elbow is like taking a drag suit into competition...only worse, because you don't feel or see what is happening to you...until your tongue is hanging out.
So when I ask campers and coaches, why the high elbow, I usually get increased power or increased surface area. I don't think either one is right.
We all know from throwing on a pair of hand paddles (which, by the way, my coach Flip Darr, reinvented in 1967...Ben Franklin was the first to use, I believe) we get a surge of power from the added surface area. So by creating EVF, do we also increase the surface area of our pulling arm?
First, the only area that matters is the part of the arm that ends up creating propulsive drag, which is the hand and forearm, so we can forget about the upper arm for this argument. Now the question is do we have more surface area of the hand/forearm in the EVF position than we do in the deep arm/elbow position?
We are really talking about the surface area projected onto a plane perpendicular to our long axis, which is the area creating the propulsive force in the backward direction. In theory, one could argue that a poor swimmer leads so much more with the elbow in the dropped position (the hand/forearm creates a forward angle at the elbow joint) that the surface area is reduced.
But with reasonable swimmers that is not what you see. From head on or from the rear, you don't see much difference in the surface area of the forearm/hand regardless of whether it is in the dropped position or the EVF position. The surface area of the arm remains the same.
Therefore, I rest my case. The reason we like the EVF position is to reduce drag....and drag remains the #1 enemy of the swimmer.
Gary Sr.
Myth #5. The reason we pull freestyle underwater with a high elbow is to increase the surface area of our arm.
Forgive me. In case you hadn't noticed that I am preaching high elbows a lot, there is a reason. At the end of each camp at the Race Club I always end by prioritizing the 10 or so points that I make to improve speed and efficiency. The top three are 1) High elbow 2) High elbow and 3) High elbow. Dropping the elbow is like taking a drag suit into competition...only worse, because you don't feel or see what is happening to you...until your tongue is hanging out.
So when I ask campers and coaches, why the high elbow, I usually get increased power or increased surface area. I don't think either one is right.
We all know from throwing on a pair of hand paddles (which, by the way, my coach Flip Darr, reinvented in 1967...Ben Franklin was the first to use, I believe) we get a surge of power from the added surface area. So by creating EVF, do we also increase the surface area of our pulling arm?
First, the only area that matters is the part of the arm that ends up creating propulsive drag, which is the hand and forearm, so we can forget about the upper arm for this argument. Now the question is do we have more surface area of the hand/forearm in the EVF position than we do in the deep arm/elbow position?
We are really talking about the surface area projected onto a plane perpendicular to our long axis, which is the area creating the propulsive force in the backward direction. In theory, one could argue that a poor swimmer leads so much more with the elbow in the dropped position (the hand/forearm creates a forward angle at the elbow joint) that the surface area is reduced.
But with reasonable swimmers that is not what you see. From head on or from the rear, you don't see much difference in the surface area of the forearm/hand regardless of whether it is in the dropped position or the EVF position. The surface area of the arm remains the same.
Therefore, I rest my case. The reason we like the EVF position is to reduce drag....and drag remains the #1 enemy of the swimmer.
Gary Sr.
I don't think anyone argues that you get more surface area with the high elbow. You start pulling earlier with the high elbow, i.e. pulling yourself from farther in front. Some argue that you use larger muscle groups with the high elbow. Not so sure about that. I think you use similar muscles but, as metioned in another post, more leverage with a higher elbow.
Myth #5. The reason we pull freestyle underwater with a high elbow is to increase the surface area of our arm. OK then, let us state it differently.
EVF helps making more effective surface available to pull backward, earlier in the effective pulling range. What about that?
Cause, really I think that this is what people mean by increasing surface area.
Forces in fluids are isotropic, meaning a particle of water will exert equal force in all directions. If you unbalance the forces the fluid will flow. So you have to think of forces in water as pressure, e.g. pounds per square inch (psi). If you double the area you double the force.
Another way to look at it is that all pressure forces exerted by a fluid (i.e. forces other than surface drag) on a solid object will be perpendicular to the surface of the object. So if your forearm is at 45 degrees to the direction of travel, even if you pull it straight back while maintaining the 45 degree orientation, the force of the water on the forearm will still be at ninety degrees to the forearm, i.e. 45 degrees to the direction of movement. This means that exactly half the force you are using to move the arm is directed sideways, perpendicular to the direction of travel, i.e. you are wasting half the energy you are expending. So, from an efficiency point of view, it makes a lot of sense to have your arm perpendicular to the direction of travel so as to maximize the portion of the energy you are expending that is pushing you forward instead of moving water sideways.
You're almost nailing it Lindsay, for we are always wasting energy, and doubling the force means we're wasting even more energy. So why bother increasing the surface area, if all we're doing is cancelling out most of the propulsive forces? Surface area only determines how much fulcrum we use period. Better to use less surface area with an efficient stroke and not waste so much energy.
You're almost nailing it Lindsay, for we are always wasting energy, and doubling the force means we're wasting even more energy. So why bother increasing the surface area, if all we're doing is cancelling out most of the propulsive forces? Surface area only determines how much fulcrum we use period. Better to use less surface area with an efficient stroke and not waste so much energy.
I'm a little confused by your terminology. A fulcrum is the pivot point in a lever, it doesn't have a property that can be increased or decreased so I don't understand that sentence.
The surface area doesn't cancel out the propulsive forces, quite the opposite, the more effective surface area you have the greater forward propelling force the water exerts on you and the less your pull slips. Picture paddling a canoe. The larger your paddle is and the more it is aligned at right angles to the direction of travel the less it will slip as you try and pull the canoe past it. Orienting the paddle or your forearm to be perpendicular to the water maximizes your efficiency.
Perhaps we have different ideas on what a dropped elbow is, on another read of Gary's post I see that he refers to deep arm/elbow position:
Now the question is do we have more surface area of the hand/forearm in the EVF position than we do in the deep arm/elbow position?
So perhaps he is referring to a relatively straight arm pull where the elbow and forearm are relatively deep in the water. When I talk about a dropped elbow I mean that the elbow is not rotated outward, so it is pointing at the bottom and the forearm is pointed nearly in the direction of travel, as opposed to a high elbow where the elbow is rotated to point at the side and the forearm is at nearly right angles to the direction of travel.
A straight arm pull is generally inefficient because for most of the arc the arm is not perpendicular to the direction of travel and so a lot of the effort is being wasted in vertical forces that don't move you forward. On top of that you have to apply larger forces in the shoulder to produce the same force in the hand and forearm that you would with a bent elbow, due to the longer lever. You can concentrate the force you exert during the period when the arm is vertical, but then you have a briefer propulsive period.
Lindsay,
We are closer than you think: for the water is the fulcrum and indeed has property. Regarding the canoe paddle, it is merely a second class lever, which uses the water as the fulcrum to propel the canoe in the direction of the force. Whether small blade/hand or large blade/hand, the canoe pivots past the blade the same way our body pivots past our hands, and the EVF just facilitates this for swimmers. That's why paddlers with small blades and swimmers with small hands continue to win races against those with monster blades or hands.:coffee:
I am arguing that you get more surface area with EVF,at least more area perpendicular to direction of force.From the front or rear you can't tell how much is perpendicular and how much is nearly perpendicular.Here is a good test,swim with EVF and closed fists and then with closed fists but not EVF. You can fell the pressure all along the forearm with EVF,without you don't get the same"grip."
From head on or from the rear, you don't see much difference in the surface area of the forearm/hand regardless of whether it is in the dropped position or the EVF position. The surface area of the arm remains the same.
I think what we need here is one of Connie's computer generated swimmer pictures. One showing a dropped elbow and one showing a high elbow. The effective surface area of the forearm most certainly does not stay the same.
With a completely dropped elbow (the forearm is parallel to the direction of movement) the effective surface area is near zero, the forearm is hidden behind the elbow when viewed from the rear. When the forearm is perpendicular to the water it has an effective area of its length times it's average diameter.
Consider swimming breaststroke with a style where the arms are recovered completely under the water. It works because when you are pulling you are keeping your arms perpendicular and therefore pressing on the water with a large surface area, and you recover the hands with the forearms parallel to the direction of travel so that the surface area is minimal.
Forces in fluids are isotropic, meaning a particle of water will exert equal force in all directions. If you unbalance the forces the fluid will flow. So you have to think of forces in water as pressure, e.g. pounds per square inch (psi). If you double the area you double the force.
Another way to look at it is that all pressure forces exerted by a fluid (i.e. forces other than surface drag) on a solid object will be perpendicular to the surface of the object. So if your forearm is at 45 degrees to the direction of travel, even if you pull it straight back while maintaining the 45 degree orientation, the force of the water on the forearm will still be at ninety degrees to the forearm, i.e. 45 degrees to the direction of movement. This means that exactly half the force you are using to move the arm is directed sideways, perpendicular to the direction of travel, i.e. you are wasting half the energy you are expending. So, from an efficiency point of view, it makes a lot of sense to have your arm perpendicular to the direction of travel so as to maximize the portion of the energy you are expending that is pushing you forward instead of moving water sideways.
Edit: I've added two screen shots of Mr. Smooth, in the front view you can see that his forearm has a large effective area relative to his right forearm. I realize that the right arm is in recovery but it does demonstrate the reduced area when the arm is pointing mostly forward.
I don't think anyone argues that you get more surface area with the high elbow. You start pulling earlier with the high elbow, i.e. pulling yourself from farther in front. Some argue that you use larger muscle groups with the high elbow. Not so sure about that. I think you use similar muscles but, as metioned in another post, more leverage with a higher elbow.
I can tell by what hurts after a workout that high elbows and dropped elbows use somewhat different muscles, or at the minimum hits them at different angles.
I think high elbows also encourage shoulder hyperextension, and works in the lats and surrounding muscles. Especially in less experienced swimmers.
With top swimmers, hyper extending the shoulder may be second nature.
With us mere mortals (not just motals like Gary Hall Sr. but most of us dead in the water average swimmers making up the bulk of the USMS), where working the whole shoulder, upper body quadrant assembly so to speak, is not ingrained yet, dropped elbows seem to encourage getting into the windmill-like motion centering on the shoulder joint as focus of all the forces.
I've seen many swimmers, even a lot of our fast sprinting people not usining much in a way of shoulder lift. What is interesting to see is a well rounded swimmer, with a lot of history competing in USA swimming championships, and becoming a masters swimmer, swim next to them. They can go just as fast, and look like they are putting in half the effort.
I'm a little confused by your terminology. A fulcrum is the pivot point in a lever, it doesn't have a property that can be increased or decreased so I don't understand that sentence.
The surface area doesn't cancel out the propulsive forces, quite the opposite, the more effective surface area you have the greater forward propelling force the water exerts on you and the less your pull slips. Picture paddling a canoe. The larger your paddle is and the more it is aligned at right angles to the direction of travel the less it will slip as you try and pull the canoe past it. Orienting the paddle or your forearm to be perpendicular to the water maximizes your efficiency.
Perhaps we have different ideas on what a dropped elbow is, on another read of Gary's post I see that he refers to deep arm/elbow position:
So perhaps he is referring to a relatively straight arm pull where the elbow and forearm are relatively deep in the water. When I talk about a dropped elbow I mean that the elbow is not rotated outward, so it is pointing at the bottom and the forearm is pointed nearly in the direction of travel, as opposed to a high elbow where the elbow is rotated to point at the side and the forearm is at nearly right angles to the direction of travel.
A straight arm pull is generally inefficient because for most of the arc the arm is not perpendicular to the direction of travel and so a lot of the effort is being wasted in vertical forces that don't move you forward. On top of that you have to apply larger forces in the shoulder to produce the same force in the hand and forearm that you would with a bent elbow, due to the longer lever. You can concentrate the force you exert during the period when the arm is vertical, but then you have a briefer propulsive period.
You are right. When I refer to a dropped elbow I mean the entire arm pulling deeper and more directly below the body. One can see this with Fred Bousquet or Alain Bernard. I believe this position creates more mechanical power than the EVF position but also creates more drag.
In nearly all good swimmers the finger tips will move in nearly a circle of about 2 ft diameter from the side view. As the hand/arm move around the circle there are vectors of both lift and propulsive drag acting throughout. Since the hand slides up and out of the circle there is virtually no force pushing the body down. The hand actually moves inside of the circle when it passes the 6 o'clock position in order to continue pushing rearward longer.
The surface area that is applicable to the propulsive power pertains only to the part of the arm moving backward (hand and forearm) and is the area projected onto a sagittal plane. Poor swimmers who 'drop' and lead with their elbow would have a reduced surface area in this plane. The propulsive drag is not just related to the amount of surface area, but also to the speed that this surface moves backward.
At any rate, I believe that in great swimmers the surface area of the propulsive part of the arm (hand/forearm) is the same, whether they use a deeper pull or EVF pull. What changes are the power and the frontal drag, with both the power and drag being diminished in the EVF position.
Gary Sr.
maybe i'm missing something here, but couldn't myths 3, 4 and 5 be combined into one high elbow super-myth?
the suspense is killing me... so please dispense 6-10
