The following has appeared on a swim forum in the UK
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I’ve been looking at recent masters results. It’s clear that swimmers are producing much slower times without bodysuits. Furthermore, many swimmers are disillusioned and are on the verge of giving up completely. It would be a travesty if these swimmers (they are mostly the over 45s) were lost to the sport altogether.
The majority of masters swimmers prefer to compete in bodysuits. Of that there is no doubt, as witnessed at masters meets up and down the country. It is a disgrace that masters swimmers have been included in the ‘new rules’ concerning elite swimming. I find it quite sad that many swimmers are talking about cutting up their suits, taking out zips and even asking whether they are allowed ‘modesty panels’ in their suits any more.
As always, we are getting no advice, guidance or even leadership from the toothless Masters Committee, whose gingivitic and malocclusive tendencies are attracting Big Nev’s interest, but that’s to be expected.
But it doesn’t have to be like this. Masters swimmers in Italy are not accepting this farce. They are still holding meets where swimmers can choose to wear bodysuits.
There was a recent questionnaire sent out to 4,000 masters swimmers in France. 2,700 swimmers replied, stating they wished to keep their bodysuits for competition.
Masters swimmers in Germany are on the verge of revolution! They accept that masters swimmers are not going to be a threat to any Olympian’s records. Many have now entered masters meets in Italy where they can wear their suits if they want. Also, some meet organisers in Germany are holding similar meets.
Instead of following any directive from our anaemic and tedious Masters Committee, I’d like to see masters swimmers in the UK make a stand against the stupidity surrounding the banning of bodysuits. It will cost me time and money but I’m prepared to organise this.
We need meet organisers in the UK to hold ‘optional suit’ masters meets. Swimmers can choose whether to wear a suit or not. If they are going for a record then the suitless option is a must - but only for a while. I believe that if we boycott masters meets where suits are now allowed, meet organisers, the Masters Committee and the ASA would have to take notice. At the moment they don’t give a toss. At the forefront of the ASA’s mind would be the loss of revenue. Believe me, they see masters swimming as a joke anyway, they would happily let masters swim in bodysuits if it meant they could keep the revenue pouring in.
Getting meet organisers to run ‘bodysuit’ meets would be easy. They would be oversubscribed, every time. Not only from our swimmers but from overseas entries too. I can see one-day meets turning into weekend ones. The organisers could make a lot of money from these well-attended meets. Pulling the plug on masters meets because of low entries would be a thing of the past.
These meets would be the thin end of the wedge in bringing about a change of rules. It‘s the boycotting of ‘non-suit’ meets that would bring a change of rule overnight.
The decathlon would be meaningless because ‘suited’ swims wouldn’t count towards it - but in reality, it is a meaningless competition anyway for all but ten swimmers in the UK who have a chance of winning it.
Don’t underestimate what can be done. Masters swimmers are a powerful group in swimming. The Government is putting very large amounts of money into the greasy hand of the ASA to promote health and fitness for adults. The ASA wouldn’t like the kind of publicity we can give them.
If you feel you can support this initiative I’ll make a start. Masters swimmers in Italy, France and Germany are ready to come on board. Many masters swimmers in America are also willing to make a stand against their governing body. Naturally, support from suit manufacturers is there already. I’ve spoken to four of the biggest.
Former Member
I agree, top 10 is a goal to work for but if it does not get recorded, it is no big deal. All in all, I think they do a pretty good job keeping up with all of the info. I figure there are 50 people who were my contemporaries in college who could, without working out, put on a suit and beat my top 10 times - so it does not seem like something to worry too much about if one gets missed. I swam a relay a couple of years ago that would have been the fastest time for the year but was not recorded. It really has not changed my life, one way or the other.
I was expecting Nike to knock at my door after qualifying for Top 10! Drats!
Um, you are forgetting the prime reason - to host the best Atlanta Nationals party where she will take you for a spin in her Corvette.
LOL! I'll be out of town for this event! Ironically, I'll be doing the Warrior Dash - mud, barbed wire and fire.
Out of curiosity, what are the main causes for divergence between the top ten and the top ten times that could be calculated automatically from the meet results database?
Two main causes:
-- not all meets are submitted to the meet results database (MRDB). Though encouraged, meet directors and TT recorders are not required to submit to this database.
-- swims in the MRDB are not subjected to quite the same level of verification as submissions to the national TT list. For example, there are sometimes swims by non-members included in the MRDB, swims that occur in pools whose lengths were not certified, and sometimes you have duplicate names that differ slightly (eg by including a middle initial in one instance but not another)
The gap between the two is shrinking, particularly due to the latter reason because there is a project underway to essentially merge the two databases. The main difficulties are (a) debugging online verification tools; (b) training TT Recorders to use them; and (c) getting people to submit all their meets as they occur. It will take some time to get all that fixed, it is essentially in beta-testing now.
Maybe what you want is here, under "Guide to Operations."
www.usms.org/.../
I am sorry that this happened to you and am not sure why you've had bad luck. I know that NC has had some issues with TT recorder (3 within one year, I think) but hopefully it is straightened out now. I encourage you to try again.
I've been swimming in masters for over 20 years and it hasn't been an issue for me. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, it just means that if it did, I didn't notice it. Then again, I don't believe I seriously paid attention to TT until 3 years ago, when I became a TT recorder.
The time between preliminary and final TT is to give people time to find errors. It happens all the time. I don't know the answer to your question about why an overlooked meet is accepted one time but not another, but I am trying to find out the policy about that. Deadlines are strictly enforced for TT submissions because Mary Beth's job is hard enough as it is without having to deal with late submissions.
I will say, though, that USA-S has its own share of inanities that I've experienced as both swimmer and parent. Including a situation where the swims from an entire LSC were "wiped out" retroactively, even though they were legit swims. Or delaying a meet for 5 minutes in order to explain to a crying child why she needed to be DQ'ed because she didn't step up to the blocks quite fast enough (ie, the meet was delayed while she was DQ'ed for delay of meet. I don't ever see that happening in USMS meets.)
I have a dozen such stories and although I can *** and moan about specific issues like anyone else, I'm grateful to the organization and the many volunteers that help run it. They do a fine job; so does USMS.
By the way, if you swim in USA-S meets you can still get those times submitted for USMS TT, as long as the pool length has been measured at some point, as you note. (If there is a bulkhead, then it needs to be re-measured at the meet.) And, of course, as long as you are a USMS member. It is up to you to make sure your TT recorder is aware of the meet, though.
Getting USMS times submitted to SWIMS is easily as much of a hassle as that.
Is Mary Beth open to having volunteers help her or does she prefer to handle Top 10 solo? Just keep reading that she's got a lot on her plate.
I'm beginning to think BigNoodler doesn't really exist. Has anyone on these forums ever met her? First, all of her times magically disappear and then she ducks out of the big meet in her backyard where lots of forumites could possibly meet her. I think BigNoodler is really just Jim Thornton's female alter ego. :)
I think Fortress and BN are one and the same.
Two main causes:
-- not all meets are submitted to the meet results database (MRDB). Though encouraged, meet directors and TT recorders are not required to submit to this database.
-- swims in the MRDB are not subjected to quite the same level of verification as submissions to the national TT list. For example, there are sometimes swims by non-members included in the MRDB, swims that occur in pools whose lengths were not certified, and sometimes you have duplicate names that differ slightly (eg by including a middle initial in one instance but not another)
The gap between the two is shrinking, particularly due to the latter reason because there is a project underway to essentially merge the two databases. The main difficulties are (a) debugging online verification tools; (b) training TT Recorders to use them; and (c) getting people to submit all their meets as they occur. It will take some time to get all that fixed, it is essentially in beta-testing now.
I can think of a third reason. Meet directors sometimes forget to submit split requests.
Glenn, sorry about your losing that top time in the 100 free....not really.
Rich
As far as Top 10 times, pool measurements, etc., it's certainly cool to get into the Top 10 and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't try to train to get higher, beat certain times and certain people, BUT, if my times didn't happen to get in there (e.g., my 400 LCM free and 100 LCM fly from the same USAS meet where my 200 free and 200 IM were recorded), that's no big deal.
I agree, top 10 is a goal to work for but if it does not get recorded, it is no big deal. All in all, I think they do a pretty good job keeping up with all of the info. I figure there are 50 people who were my contemporaries in college who could, without working out, put on a suit and beat my top 10 times - so it does not seem like something to worry too much about if one gets missed. I swam a relay a couple of years ago that would have been the fastest time for the year but was not recorded. It really has not changed my life, one way or the other.
Many older ladies in the UK have now had enough of the bodysuit debacle and have decided to leave the sport once and for all. Unlike your system in the US, we in Britain are 'guided' by a masters committee - which is under constant criticism from masters swimmers. They are giving us no lead. In fact they interpret the new rules in their own way, but openly admit they too are confused. Our governing body doesn't give a toss about masters swimming, except when registration fees are due, then they grab the cash with open hands.
Many of our older swimmers feel comfortable in their bodysuits. There are people here who go on about wanting a level playing field. These swimmers are hardly going to be a threat to Michael Phelps or any other elite Olympian. If bodysuits were allowed in masters swimming then the playing field would be level, as it was before. Remember, all swimming rules in masters are not the same as in elite swimming anyway.
If we really want to consign masters swimming to the scrap heap, marginalising some of our better (and often older) swimmers, then banning bodysuits is a great way of going about it.
