Can speed practice alone help long distance endurance?

and what you left out of the equation is some 100/1500 ratio to start with. Interesting here. I'm using some maths formula to establish this ratio (any distance can do). These formulas allows me to basically compute an individual fatigue decay. Over time, I found out that a good target for triathletes was a decay of 1.06. Using this "ideal" decay factor: 100m @ 1:30 is worth 26:30 over 1500 100m @ 1:25 is worth 25:00 over 1500 100m @ 1:20 is worth 23:30 "" "" 100m @ 1:15 is worth 22:05 "" "" 100m @ 1:10 is worth 20:38 "" "" So based on a fixed ratio between 100/1500 included in our "equation", we may predict an improvement of ~1:30 of the 1500 for each 5sec gain over 100 (given that the individual fatigue decay doesn't change of course). This 85-90sec improvement (over 1500) even exceeds the sum of all 5sec cut on the 100 (75sec).

All the comments here are really helpful! It's comforting and encouraging to me that quite a few think short distance speed trainings do play important part in developing endurance. Thanks for the story and link to the other forum discussion about real experiences, SolarEnergy. I am going to follow the suggestion of doing short distance with very short rests. That's a great idea. As for the magic "pill", I'm afraid it will make me stupid, even if faster :shakeshead: hmmmm..... i think most distance swimmers spend most of their time doing 25/50/100/200m based training. thats what 90% of the masters workouts i do consist of. chaos, do you do the other 10% (long distance) all in OW, or some in pools?

no doubt that it is useful to be able to shift into overdrive though i have never been in a situation where my life depended on it. my own experience suggests that common OW situations like rough water and aggressive thrashing packs are better handled by yielding to the offending body of water and downshifting. slowing your stroke rate down a bit and employing a near catch-up technique will do more to protect you from getting kicked in the teeth than adding to the thrashing all around............ my humble opinion........ It really depends on circumstances. Sometimes it is the best strategy to sprint free of the pack and then downshift. Other times, as you say, biding your time works better. Lots of great distance guys swim near-catchup for almost the entire race. But one place where speed (and a strong kick) definitely comes into play is the last part of the race.

Absolutely, for as a kayak escort, sprinters have no trouble taking on the surf and strong currents. Long distance marathon swimmers do have trouble and I have to fish them out all the time. Speed practice really helps you punch out, while you'll just be marking time and swimming in place when the current is against you if you train long and slow like "marathon swimmers" do. If you're busy work-a-holic that can manage an hour of training a day, then speed practice is for you, and a one mile to 2 1/2 mile open ocean swim will be a piece of cake. Anything over an hour of practice is just garbage milage and is counter productive. Forget technique, for out in the ocean, you just throw your arms out there and see what works, for all that efficient stroke stuff means nothing when you're getting banged up in the surf. Suit yourself Chaos, but I'm talking survival. I've personally pulled long distance swimmers with picture perfect strokes onto my kayak. Swimming in the surfzone, out, back and parallel to the breakers means you throw anything out there that will work. If you can swim with the perfect stroke, while at the same time being kicked, whacked, scratched and tossed around swimming in a pack, then more power to you. But I personally prefer a body surf stroke that allows me to zig and zag with the flow of the water and get me to shore with enough energy to run up the beach to the finishline. Remember, the ocean is the great equalizer, and you are not wearing fins or pfd, so swim accordingly. In the middle of nonsensical notions like "inefficient swimming leaves you more energy" and "anything over one hour training is not just wasted but harmful," there is some value to what Clyde is saying. Not about the body-surf-stroke silliness, but: -- if you have limited training time, do it at higher intensities -- distance swimmers do need to be able to "punch it" at times to deal with a variety of circumstances, most especially in OW swimming

WARNING: ridiculous statement above Suit yourself Chaos, but I'm talking survival. I've personally pulled long distance swimmers with picture perfect strokes onto my kayak. Swimming in the surfzone, out, back and parallel to the breakers means you throw anything out there that will work. If you can swim with the perfect stroke, while at the same time being kicked, whacked, scratched and tossed around swimming in a pack, then more power to you. But I personally prefer a body surf stroke that allows me to zig and zag with the flow of the water and get me to shore with enough energy to run up the beach to the finishline. Remember, the ocean is the great equalizer, and you are not wearing fins or pfd, so swim accordingly.

An interesting thread. I don't know much about physiology, so I can't comment on those arguments. I would have thought that if you manage to reduce your short distance times by eg improving grip on water, reducing resistance this will surely translate into better long distance times. On the other hand if you improved your long distance times by the same means, this would also improve your short-distance times, so even the relationship Solar shows above is true it doesn't show which is the best way train. I can well believe though that shorter distances allow better focus on improving technique at speed.

-- if you have limited training time, do it at higher intensities -- distance swimmers do need to be able to "punch it" at times to deal with a variety of circumstances, most especially in OW swimming no doubt that it is useful to be able to shift into overdrive though i have never been in a situation where my life depended on it. my own experience suggests that common OW situations like rough water and aggressive thrashing packs are better handled by yielding to the offending body of water and downshifting. slowing your stroke rate down a bit and employing a near catch-up technique will do more to protect you from getting kicked in the teeth than adding to the thrashing all around............ my humble opinion........

Thanks for all the kind words swimmers, fortunately the ocean is big enough for all of us to swim in, even in conditions many of us are not familiar with. Call it "ridiculous," "non-sensible," and "silly," or even mis-quote me, but utilizing a lop-sided and lounging forward (on one side) style of stroke has gotten me through many of rips. Oh! And if the pool is deep enough (and they'll allow you to do it) try underwater rock running with heavy vinyl coated weights.

Thanks a ton for sharing your own experiences, from kayak escort to OW races! I have no idea whether longer-than-1-hour practice would add much, but certainly wish it does not, since I don't have 2, 3 hours to swim each day ;). One thing that occurred to me which may not be helped enough by short distance speed practice: breathing. I have the impression that breathing is more of a factor in long distance and OW water than in short, fast pool swimming. Also, my own experience is that oftentimes exhaustion is caused by improper breathing. What are your experiences? Any more comments appreciated.

Forget technique, for out in the ocean, you just throw your arms out there and see what works, for all that efficient stroke stuff means nothing when you're getting banged up in the surf. I can certainly understand your point given your kayaker viewpoint, but I think you're referring to extenuating circumstances. When training for open water swims, most of us aren't going to be swimming through Perfect Storm-type waves. I won't argue that some OW events do have more wave action than others, but there are a great many that are run in fairly placid water. For that reason, why not work on perfecting your technique? My thought on this is: if you know what an efficient stroke feels like, you will also know when it is not: usually when the waves and currents mess with your stroke. Assuming you're not dealing with very isolated & rogue conditions, a well-aware swimmer should have ample time to adjust their technique to make it as efficient as possible given the conditions.