For those who say you don't step back from technology, how about the golf world, that is finally getting rid of square grooves after many years?
At best that could be viewed as sliding your feet backward an inch or two rather than a step back. The net affect on 99% of the golfers of the world is negligible.
Former Member
Really? I just heard that USMS voted at convention to follow FINA?
I guess this puts competitive masters swimmers at a huge disadvantage compared to Europeans and possibly other countries.
Who did you hear this from?
Former Member
Someone at convention. I'm trying to confirm it with someone else.
What have you heard?
I haven't heard a word. I think if other masters governing bodies are going to allow them, we should as well. If someone from usms wants to swim usa, then follow the usa rules.
Now, if other masters governing bodies ban them, usms follow.
Do you feel like permitting swim skins in OW is a slap in the face to OW swimmers and has marginalized them despite OW's apparently booming popularity?
I know many are a fan of the ban. But I think FINA should have engaged in regulation rather than punting. Frankly, I hope the tech suits fans are fairly represented at the Convention, as I have the impression we aren't.
I think saying OW swimming is not swimming is insulting, yes. Certainly there have to be some different rules governing the two, though, and I guess that's how they spin it. Wouldn't want to get stung by jellies.
For women, especially, FINA only rolled back the clock by 2 years. I don't think that is "punting." For men, I think jammers is consistent with the idea that the main purpose of the suit is modesty.
When you get right down to it, this is an argument about whether the suit should be for modesty purposes or for performance enhancement (which was always against FINA's own rules, they just side-stepped the issue).
I don't think anything major is going to happen at Convention wrt the suits. This is a "legislation" year which means most concern is about governance, not rules. Of course, USMS issued this statement months ago (in March, I think):
"FINA approval or rejection of new swimwear introduced after September 30, 2007, will be accepted by U.S. Masters Swimming for U.S.M.S. sanctioned and recognized competition."
In addition to the ban of double-suits, this is the current "law of the land" in USMS, I believe. I guess the Rules Committee needs to clarify what this means, exactly, after Jan 1.
I am not sure if the whole "FINA doesn't apply this to masters" thing flies with this rule...out of curiousity, I asked Rules chair Kathy Casey at LCM nationals if XTerra skinsuits were legal for USMS competition (I own one but didn't have it with me, so the question was largely academic). The Xterra suits did NOT make it thru the first round with FINA and I guess they didn't resubmit; only one model is on their current list. Kathy said that is the only one that could be worn at USMS meets.
And that is the crux of it, right there. FINA has already said that the ban does not apply to us, which I suppose could be seen as a dismissive gesture that diminishes the relevance of Masters swimming. So if we take it upon ourselves to ban the suits, we will somehow be redeemed. Or something like that.
Sure I think it is dismissive ("let masters with their creaky knees and beer bellies keep the suits while real swimmers do without") but I don't think there is any such intention of "redemption" on the part of USMS. There are two issues for USMS: compliance (or not) with new USA-S rules, and compliance with FINA rules for masters. Whenever USA-S changes their rules of competition, USMS usually follows it, unless there is reason not to do so. For example, if USMS keeps the suits, I don't know what happens to the whole dual-sanction thing. And certainly I don't see why USA-S would accept times done at USMS meets as legit (eg to meet qualifying standards for a particular meet).
It is only my opinion, but I don't believe that USMS will go against FINA (it would put us at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the world), but I also don't think that we've heard the last from FINA about how the suits will apply to masters. And there is a question about whether USMS would or should advocate a particular position (as USA-S did).
Former Member
i think its ridiculous to allow the swim skins for OW competition.... but I believe b70 had gained fina approval of the point zero first specifically for OW.
doesn't change my opinion though.
Really? I just heard that USMS voted at convention to follow FINA?
The House of Delegates hasn't voted for anything yet (other than approving reports) so I guess it must be a committee (and not one I attended -- there are multiple meetings in parallel; no one has mentioned suits in any meeting I've been to).
That's not correct about FINA rolling back the clock 2 years for women. I recall women wearing full body suits with zippers in the 2000 Olympics. And I disagree with the notion that suits are just for "modesty" purposes. That hasn't been the case for a decade, and I don't see why it should be. Other sports have specialty/speed enhancing equipment, and I don't see why swimming should be exempt from this reality and go backward in time. I think it's absolutely correct to say that FINA punted on this issue. There's no middle ground or regulation -- it's just an outright victory for purists.
My understanding is that the current USA/FINA "ban" is NOT the law of the land for masters and that we are currently permitted to wear B70s etc. That's why a majority of folks at Nationals had tech suits and why you will continue to see them at USMS meets.
I forgot about the zippers thing (which I do think is kind of silly). And of course you disagree with the "suits for modesty thing," you like the suits. It is an opinion/preference kind of thing.
I think there are two types of swimmers: those who reacted with joy at FINA's announcement banning the latest suits, and those who were dismayed. I am one of the former, though I don't claim any special moral purity for it, it is just my preference. I like it when the swimmer determines the outcome and his/her suit is not a factor at all.
Masters could wear B70s etc at nationals because they are still FINA-legal, at least until Jan 1.
I think saying OW swimming is not swimming is insulting, yes. Certainly there have to be some different rules governing the two, though, and I guess that's how they spin it. Wouldn't want to get stung by jellies.
For women, especially, FINA only rolled back the clock by 2 years. I don't think that is "punting." For men, I think jammers is consistent with the idea that the main purpose of the suit is modesty.
Of course, USMS issued this statement months ago (in March, I think):
"FINA approval or rejection of new swimwear introduced after September 30, 2007, will be accepted by U.S. Masters Swimming for U.S.M.S. sanctioned and recognized competition."
In addition to the ban of double-suits, this is the current "law of the land" in USMS, I believe. I guess the Rules Committee needs to clarify what this means, exactly, after Jan 1.
As I said before, and as others have since agreed, I don't think there necessarily has to be a dichotomy between pool and OW swimming. Do swim skins provide more protection than textile suits? Not so sure ... I agree with LBJ that FINA screwed this issue up as well.
That's not correct about FINA rolling back the clock 2 years for women. I recall women wearing full body suits with zippers in the 2000 Olympics. And I disagree with the notion that suits are just for "modesty" purposes. That hasn't been the case for a decade, and I don't see why it should be. Other sports have specialty/speed enhancing equipment, and I don't see why swimming should be exempt from this reality and go backward in time. I think it's absolutely correct to say that FINA punted on this issue. There's no middle ground or regulation -- it's just an outright victory for purists.
My understanding is that the current USA/FINA "ban" is NOT the law of the land for masters and that we are currently permitted to wear B70s etc. That's why a majority of folks at Nationals had tech suits and why you will continue to see them at USMS meets.
If this issue isn't addressed at Convention, when will it be addressed? Do you really think USMS will advocate a position? I don't ... I think they will wait and see what FINA does.
I think there are two types of swimmers: those who reacted with joy at FINA's announcement banning the latest suits, and those who were dismayed. I am one of the former, though I don't claim any special moral purity for it, it is just my preference. I like it when the swimmer determines the outcome and his/her suit is not a factor at all.
Masters could wear B70s etc at nationals because they are still FINA-legal, at least until Jan 1.
Of course there are two types of swimmers! As long as someone isn't staking a claim to purity and morality, I'm fine with it. Everyone is entitled to their preference.
As of now, until USMS adopts the committee recommendation (which I'm sure is likely) or FINA says its ban actually applies to masters (which would be a reversal), B70s are still legal. I realize this is a technicality, and may not remain the case, but right now they are still FINA-legal post Jan 1. And there is a chance they will be FINA-legal for masters but not USMS-legal. That would suck.
Note: Midas makes a good point on the other thread. It could be that whatever is "adopted" at convention is just USMS's proposal to FINA who will likely consider the proposals of all member master organizations. It would be nice to have some confirmation that this is true or enlightenment on this issue.
At best that could be viewed as sliding your feet backward an inch or two rather than a step back. The net affect on 99% of the golfers of the world is negligible.
A fun fact from the middle of the pack: Typically I prefer to compare my times to the overall pack. As soon as the wetsuit users are separated out I drop into a lower percentile.
As for me, I will still go with the outdated briefs, the cold water, the racing against myself, and the nice scenery. . . . oh and the swim so hard I wanna puke when the race adrenaline kicks in. But I would hope that this dialogue continues. This sport should still draw the many and not the few.
