Freestyle technique

I think of hip driven as a long extension of the leading hand and a rotation of the hips almost to 90 degrees to help power the stroke. For me, I find this to be a very difficult stroke to maintain a solid SR with (best I can get is about 45-48 strokes/min). That might be due to poor core strength/flexibility that prevents my hips/lower body from rotating quickly. My shoulder driven stroke is much flatter, with a higher turn over (68-70 strokes/min) and very little body rotation to help keep my kick tighter and prevent my feet from crossing each other. When I swim hip driven, I average 12 strokes per length in a 25m pool and swim the 25 in about 16-17 seconds. Shoulder driven is 17.5 strokes per length in 14-15 seconds. These are from a push.

If one shoulder rotates up the other shoulder rotates down the rest of the body will or can follow suit or may not. so is it hip driven or shoulder driven??? i don't know...i can't relate to it like that. its everything driven...kick, hands, shoulders, core...everything. you got to make it all work. i spend most of my time trying to get a better kick and a better pull. i haven't thought much about rotation in many years. that's not to say I shouldn't be thinking about it, though.

It's difficult to say. The model swims somewhat flat up front with little or no reach with it's arms, yet the hips are rotating from side to side. Not exactly real world, but close. It looks a tad too mechanical even though it's a very well done computer model. The coach describes it here very well. He thinks of each style as a different gear. And there are examples of each. A sprinter may not be able to use a shoulder driven freestyle on a longer set (without getting tired)...so they transition into more of a distance stroke. Hip driven is more like speed skating. Long extension of the lead arm, more of a body roll, and a quieter kick. www.youtube.com/watch This is the same clip referenced earlier, only on youtube. I find it confusing because, as you note, a 'hip-driven' stroke is longer and slower, while 'shoulder-driven' is faster. But that seems to mean, by definition, hip driven is just swimming slower and shoulder-driven is just swimming faster. That wouldn't be a difference in method, but a difference in pacing. At the same time, people who have a lot of experience seem to say there is a difference, and it's significant. That's what I'm trying to understand.

by definition, hip driven is just swimming slower and shoulder-driven is just swimming faster.Not so, although it can appear that way. Swimming with 'core rotation' as opposed to swimming a bit more flat is the primary difference between the two styles. Gary Hall Sr. wrote a very good article on "swimming with your body". www.theraceclub.net/.../swimming-with-your-body.html

Not so, although it can appear that way. Swimming with 'core rotation' as opposed to swimming a bit more flat is the primary difference between the two styles. Gary Hall Sr. wrote a very good article on "swimming with your body". www.theraceclub.net/.../swimming-with-your-body.html key point in this article I find is the recommendation for one-arm drill. When done with the other arm along side the body, this drill will get anyone to rotate correctly, whether from the hips or shoulders. Here's one of my favorite progression to develop good sprinting technique. It involves kicking no board with full 6beat pattern, (bilateral) breathing etc. That's freestyle without the arms basically, followed with some 1 arm drill. Kid on the clip is 15yo, worth 1:53.5 over 200m SCM YouTube - Freestyle 6beat kicking to 1arm progression

Shoulder driven is said to be more of sprinters stroke. Think of it as a different gear. Hip driven is how they said Ian Thorpe swam. More of a middle distance style where a long extended arm ans some hip rotation would make him stealthier in the water. When he sprinted though...it was all out shoulders. These videos explain it much better. www.theraceclub.net/Videos Honest, I looked at these videos quite a few times and couldn't tell the difference in strokes. Partly that's because the videos showed mostly hands and feet but rarely showed shoulders and hips, and almost never showed shoulders and hips at the same time. I'm a bit of a simpleton, though, so how about this guy?: http://swimsmooth.com/ Is his stroke hip-driven or shoulder-driven, and how can you tell? (I'm not being sarcastic - just trying to understand the discussion.)

I think the confusion here is because... Many coaches say that body roll is hip initiated. I believe it is shoulder initiated as many other coaches do. I also know that there is a group of swim coaches that believe the body roll is leg driven. These guys are the who suggest a two beat kick.

Not so, although it can appear that way. Swimming with 'core rotation' as opposed to swimming a bit more flat is the primary difference between the two styles. Gary Hall Sr. wrote a very good article on "swimming with your body". www.theraceclub.net/.../swimming-with-your-body.html It sounds like the shoulders should be driving, regardless of whether the stroke is shoulder-driven or hip-driven. However, with the hip-driven stroke the hips are rotating as well. With shoulder-driven, the rotation of the hips is minimized. Does that sound right?

so how about this guy?: http://swimsmooth.com/ Is his stroke hip-driven or shoulder-driven, and how can you tell? (I'm not being sarcastic - just trying to understand the discussion.) It's difficult to say. The model swims somewhat flat up front with little or no reach with it's arms, yet the hips are rotating from side to side. Not exactly real world, but close. It looks a tad too mechanical even though it's a very well done computer model. The coach describes it here very well. He thinks of each style as a different gear. And there are examples of each. A sprinter may not be able to use a shoulder driven freestyle on a longer set (without getting tired)...so they transition into more of a distance stroke. Hip driven is more like speed skating. Long extension of the lead arm, more of a body roll, and a quieter kick. www.youtube.com/watch

Honest, I looked at these videos quite a few times and couldn't tell the difference in strokes. Partly that's because the videos showed mostly hands and feet but rarely showed shoulders and hips, and almost never showed shoulders and hips at the same time. I'm a bit of a simpleton, though, so how about this guy?: http://swimsmooth.com/ Is his stroke hip-driven or shoulder-driven, and how can you tell? (I'm not being sarcastic - just trying to understand the discussion.) Hip driven mate. 100% hip driven. I say this because (unless these was a change in his coaching philosophy), P.Newsome is one of the respectable coaches I was referring too that clearly advocate hip driven free style. So I guess that their new baby swimmer is applying this concept as well.