It's going to be hard for me not to see biases from rowdy or usms officers if they are getting money from the suit manufacturers. If usms decided to allow the body suits, I feel that money may have influenced the decision.
And for Masters specifically…
At our age, we need all the help we can get!
Rubbish. What, are we going to drown if we don't have a fancy suit? So we'll swim slower without one. Big deal.
I love this one from John Beatty…“No one is forcing a master’s swimmer to wear the suit. It’s not like we are swimming to make a national team. We swim for our own reasons. Why should we care what someone else is wearing if we are supposedly swimming for our individual selves?”
I disagree. Maybe some people wouldn't care, but I can tell you I wouldn't be happy that the guy swimming next to me showed up on the blocks wearing fins and paddles, for example. Swim meets are COMPETITIONS. In a competition I think you should care what your competitors are doing.
I disagree here. I don't care what you or anyone else does that is in my heat. I can only control how I swim and I only care about how I swim.
I disagree here mostly. You're right that I can only control how I swim, but I care both about how I swim ... and how I place. If I didn't care about how I placed or what others were doing, I could do my own races at my home pool without traveling to meets. The competition / racing is a primary goal, but it also helps me swim faster.
Rubbish. What, are we going to drown if we don't have a fancy suit? So we'll swim slower without one. Big deal.
I disagree. Maybe some people wouldn't care, but I can tell you I wouldn't be happy that the guy swimming next to me showed up on the blocks wearing fins and paddles, for example. Swim meets are COMPETITIONS. In a competition I think you should care what your competitors are doing.
Right on, Kirk. If you are swimming slower, finds ways to swim faster(or tech suits times) without a fancy suit as a crutch. Go to an extra practice or two, have a day devoted to a stroke or sprinting or technique, step up the weights, yoga, etc.
I really don't think that Gaines can be that objective since he has an endorsement deal with b70.
I totally care about what my competitors are doing. How could you not care? It is the nature of sports to care.
Rowdy's 8 general swimming reasons are irrelevant, that ship has sailed. FINA banned the suits and USS, NCAA and high school followed very quickly.
I've hear a lot of FINA-bashing now from pro-tech people. I grant that they have been a bumbling organization WRT the suits, but there is no way anyone can convince me that FINA had the spine to act unilaterally on this matter. They banned the suits because of pressure from others; the USA-S sent them a proposal to that effect. The anti-tech backlash had been building for awhile, and the Jaked/Arena suits just pushed them over the edge. FINA was only responding to that; I'm sure if no one protested, every suit would still be legal.
You can blame them for capitulating too quickly to a vocal minority. Or you can say they were just giving the majority of coaches and swimmers what they want. I do not know which is the truth, but I suspect it is the latter.
So Rowdy gives more reasons why masters should resist the tide. I find them to be pretty unconvincing.
"At our age, we need all the help we can get!"
I assume this is a joke?
"At the very least, let’s keep it around through 2010. A lot of people HAVE spent a lot of money and it would be nice to have some time to “wear them out.”
No one forced anyone to buy the suits. I know many people who bought them after the FINA edict, knowing full well that masters might possibly follow and the suits would be banned Jan 1. Caveat emptor.
“No one is forcing a master’s swimmer to wear the suit. It’s not like we are swimming to make a national team. We swim for our own reasons. Why should we care what someone else is wearing if we are supposedly swimming for our individual selves?”
Because swimming is a competitive sport. Because I want to follow the same rules as the rest of the swimming universe. Why not allow one-handed turns? Or SDKs past the 15m mark? (I'd sure be in favor of that one.)
"The prices of the suits will go down, way down, now that the manufacturers have a glut of these that they are trying to get rid of."
So? Price isn't the main issue here.
"It’s Masters! At the end of the day, it just doesn’t matter (or at least it shouldn’t) and we can all go out afterwards for a beer and a laugh."
I honestly don't get this. Who takes the sport (too) seriously, the person who buys a Jaked that might be banned in 4 months in order to get in a few last fast swims? Or the person who doesn't?
Masters is fun, but clearly a lot of people care about their performance or the suits would never have caught on. Rules are necessary in any competition, deciding which ones to follow doesn't make you more fun-loving than the next guy.
I disagree. Maybe some people wouldn't care, but I can tell you I wouldn't be happy that the guy swimming next to me showed up on the blocks wearing fins and paddles, for example. Swim meets are COMPETITIONS. In a competition I think you should care what your competitors are doing.
Actually, in a swimming competition (or any other individual competition) you can only worry about what you are doing. If you worry about what others are doing, then you have already given them an advantage over you, whether you realize it or not.
Except that fins and paddles are currently ILLEGAL. At least until FINA changes that ruling too.
As for competing. Why do we compete in Masters? What extrinsic reward is there for finishing first in a race? Cash? Nope. Free stuff? None that posseses a very high monetary value at best. Fame? Huh-uh, pull the other one. Adoration from other Masters swimmers? Please see Exhibit: Paul Smith.
With all that, what exactly is being taken away from a Masters swimmer who finishes 2nd versus one who finishes 1st? Assuming of course that 2nd place chose to swim in a brief and 1st place chose to swim in a body suit?
I will say in a pool meet for shorter distances, I don't conern myself with others. But, in OW especially, knowing what your comeptitors are doing and where they are is pretty important, for me anyway. What they are wearing is mostly irrelevent to me in all race situations.
The political winds will shift when we discover there is way less financial support given to the next generation of athletes because the swim suit manufacturers are broke.
Maybe, maybe not. But in the meantime we have to deal with the here and now, not speculate about what FINA will do in the future.
Personally, I think the swimsuit manufacturers will do just fine. I'm not going to support tech suits because I am worried that they'll go out of business.
I use to care what the people I raced against did in the events. I don't care anymore. Not caring about anyone else in the race has made swimming tons better because I am the only person that I have to worry about in the event.
The more I think about it, I realize that both your reason and Rowdy's "it's just masters" reason are basically the same: the stakes are so low, why should anyone care what someone else is wearing?
But this is disingenuous. As far as I can see, the only reason an individual wears these suits is to go faster; the other reasons are unconvincing, to say the least. But if the stakes are really so low, why should you care enough to spend $$$ to buy a high-tech suit to go faster?
Actually, in a swimming competition (or any other individual competition) you can only worry about what you are doing. If you worry about what others are doing, then you have already given them an advantage over you, whether you realize it or not.
Who said anything about worrying about your competition? My point is that you need to be cognizant of your competitors. Do you think Lezak was paying attention to Bernard in the next lane last year in the 400 relay in Beijing? I think he was and if he truly blocked Bernard's presence out entirely he probably wouldn't have won.
Personally, I think the swimsuit manufacturers will do just fine. I'm not going to support tech suits because I am worried that they'll go out of business.
In fact, people have speculated on this forum that the LZR was a loss leader for Speedo and that they are making all their money selling more traditional suits.
If the suits remain legal for masters, then they are part of the equation to going as fast as I can. If FINA or USMS does ban them, then they won't be part of the equation to going faster, which won't necessarily be a bad thing. But I do hope we at least keep the textile ones legal. Another reason I would spend money on a bodysuit is that I really don't want to shave. Yea, I know there people who don't like that argument but unless you are somewhat hairy to really hairy, you have no idea how bad it is to shave. Someone said that even if you do wear a suit, you still have to shave. No, you really don't. Yea, some hair will stick through the suit but a bodysuit will still cut down on drastically on the drag created by the body hair.
Actually the shaving thing is one reason other than speed that sounds reasonably legit. But I don't see why masters swimmers are any different than other swimmers in this regard. "It's only masters," if you don't like shaving, don't do it.
Right, and all the speculation up until now that precipitated this irrational decision was inherently justified? For the purity of the sport?
You should know, this isn't about what's good for the sport. This is about the first time in history there has been a political challenger to the throne, and nepotism cut the heir off at the knees!
FINA originally adopted the suits because they were pressured to do so (by the manufacturers). Banning them was no different, they just went with the prevailing winds (this time blowing from coaches and swimmers).
Bottom line: FINA and many other bodies have made a decision. When FINA allowed dolphin kicks in breaststroke, should USMS alone refuse the new rules if they deem it a "wrong" decision? Same with any other rule change. I think there is a burden is on the pro-tech people to say why USMS shouldn't follow the same rules as other swimming orgnizations.
I readily admit that there are some ways that masters are unique. Allowing in-water starts or butterfrog are examples of "special" rules.
So: are there other reasons why should the suits be treated as a special case?
This is an honest question. If the suit thing comes up at Convention I want to represent my LMSC, not just my own personal preference, so I'd like to hear all the possible arguments. I'll definitely vote against my preference if I think it serves my LMSC better. I voted for a wetsuit category at national OW champs last year even thogh I would never wear one myself.
If other international masters organizations keep the suits, then that is another good argument for USMS to do so. Then the question is, should USMS advocate for an international suit ban, as USS did? Personally I would say yes b/c I like masters to be as similar as possible to "regular" swimming but I'll vote for what serves my LMSC best.
