I'm having a hard time with the Blue 70.
I love it. I swam faster than I deserved to in it (I bought it until it ripped, then returned), and I had fun swimming faster again!
My question/statement is this:
It is more than obvious from my own experience, and MANY swimmers I've talked to, that you drop at least 3 seconds per 50 in any event wearing this suit. I know that last year I swam a morning race and went 38 without the suit, put one on and swam the same event and went 35. I sure as heck didn't taper in an hour! And I can't remember dropping 3 seconds in a 50 in recent decades.
Highly respected "people" in USMS that I have had conversations with say it is undoubtedly "legalized cheating". I agree. I'm not quite sure how or why FINA approved it. (And I'm not saying it should be banned. It is what it is.) But when a SUIT improves performance it is no longer necessarily the swimmer achieving those times.
My hubby brought up the cost as well. (I have a suit fund going, so we don't have to shell out $400 all at once, if I even buy one.) It definitely separates the haves from the have nots. There are many more Masters Swimmers who cannot afford this suit than those who can. Several of my teammates would love one but can't afford it. And while this may be more a "social" question, it is still a factor in our swimming races.
My thought, as I was looking at recent results was this: Because the B70 is such a factor in racing performance, I would love to see some kind of a notation (notice I didn't say the dreaded Barry Bonds asterisk!) next to results of swimmers who wear a B70 in a race. Or have a B70 division for all results? We already have a wetsuit division for OW, why not have a B70 division for pool races? (It is almost a wetsuit anyway!)
This past weekend I watched an already elite swimmer wear a B70 and annhilate their already super fast times. If I were a swimmer from another part of the country, I'd be thinking, "Good God, how much faster can they get?" When if fact they aren't necessarily much faster, they are now wearing a B70.
When is technology too much?
2cents
Karen
Karen
This thread is both amusing and disconcerting. It treats competitive performance as if the only success factor is the characteristics of the suit. If that were true, a simple and pain free solution to training would be to just wait until manufacturers come out with the next generation of suits before going to your next meet. Using Laura as an example, you totally discount what she puts into the sport. 5000 meters, 6 or 7 days a week doing workouts most masters swimmers couldn’t begin to touch is a start. Her skill typically means she swims without competition so that there is no one to push her in races. Last weekend she was in a terrific head-to-head race with Janna Matena. Laura is a fierce competitor who hates to lose. Jana pushing her and the adrenalin of the race are surely the reasons for the time and not a piece of fabric. While the new suits no doubt help performance, attributing Laura’s accomplishments to the suit is a disservice to her commitment, skill, talent and hard work.
:cheerleader:
The trick is slipping it past your spouse.
My spouse bought me my second one for xmas ... :)
Agree with you, fastback! No one's going fast without some serious training, dedication and talent. The naysayers often forget this key fact.
I am in a real quandry about cheating. Do I buy a $400 suit and beat people cheating?
Doesn't phrasing the question that way answer it? You aren't racing for money, or even fame. You are basically swimming and racing for your own dignity. So if you think you'd feel as if you were cheating, then don't do it. There are still plenty of people for you to race, starting with yourself.
On the other hand, if you wouldn't feel bad about yourself for using one, and if you have $400 to spend on a personal luxury, and you think that spending it that way would give you more pleasure than spending it some other way, then why not? To use myself as an example of the "victim" of such cheating: You have already beaten me in direct competition at least once while you were wearing a B70 and I wasn't, and I am perfectly OK with that. (PM me if you want the details.)
fastback: It was not my intention to discredit Laura in any way. I have a huge amount of respect for her swimming. (I'd love to have a tenth of her talent.)
I know her well enough to know that all you say is true.
As far as the thread being amusing, amusement was not my intent.
My supposition, in starting this thread, is that most all serious competitive masters swimmers do already put in the training, etc. necessary to achieve whatever goals they have set out to attain. The suit is just another component of racing. By me mentioning that she dropped 5 seconds wearing a B70 takes nothing away from her preparation, just brings up an interesting point.
ourswimmer: I guess it would help if I PM you because I have no idea who you are : ]
When I race I have very specific goals. Sometimes it's time, sometimes it's to work on a mechanic, sometimes it's to beat a friendly rival. When I made my comment, what I meant was that it is not OK for people to compete when they're cheating. You may be OK being beaten by someone wearing a B70, or some other advantage, but I'm not. I wore that suit once back in Oct and I can't bring myself to wear it again. Not to say I won't wear one in a championship meet, but as I said, I'm really struggling with the advantage that it has provided for me. On the other hand I'm not OK being beaten by people wearing it either.
I just think it needs it's own category is all I'm really trying to say.
I guess my stroke technique must need a lot of work then!
Like anyone here, I can only relate my experience and I dropped 3 seconds in a 50.
Last summer I personally watched a 15 year old do a 1:07 in trials for a 100 fly (no holding back), put on a B70 and go 1:01 in the finals. That, too, works out to 3 seconds per 50.
There may be people who drop that kind of time, I don't know. I am absolutely sure that I do not, even comparing a practice suit to a B70. Three seconds per 50 is insane, far greater even than Schubert's claim of 2% for the LZR.
And I don't believe the elites (ie Phelps and co) do either; assuming that the LZR is at least comparable to the B70, records would have dropped MUCH MUCH MORE than they did. Consider that 3 seconds per 50 would be 12 seconds in the 200s and 24 seconds in the 400. Did that happen? Not even close. You didn't even see 3-second drops in the 50 or 100 WRs.
I think it is a mistake to read too much into the drop of a 15-yo from trials to finals. I see large AM/PM differences quite commonly at USA-S meets in the trials & finals format, without changing suits, even in the championship meets with the more experienced swimmers.
what I meant was that it is not OK for people to compete when they're cheating.
It's NOT cheating.
I think you're overstating the advantage over a Pro.
BTW, Karen, there are plenty of fast swimmers on the East Coast. Check the results from our Zones meets. Many of the fast ones are wearing B70s. This is not a West Coast phenomenon.
It's NOT cheating.
Exactly. Cheating is breaking the rules. Agree with it or otherwise using a B70 is allowed by the rules.
Personally I rarely race another person directly, if I happen to be swimming with someone and we're neck-and-neck or he's just ahead I'll try to kick it in to try to pass him but I never pick someone out ahead of time and say "I'm going to beat you". I'm there to beat the clock first and foremost. Happening to get first or second or third is just gravy. Of course I understand competition is different things for different people, some like the adrenaline of a good race and that is more important than a time. That's cool too.
I'm of the opinion that as much hype as these tech suits are generating when it comes down to it, 9 times out of 10 the person who "wins" a race did so because they're either more talented, trained harder, swam smarter, or just plain wanted it more. I'm willing to bet just about anything that if you took the tech suits away from everyone that the results of pretty much any meet will look the same as they do today.
It's awesome that people are seeing 3 seconds drops per-50. Even a 0.3 second drop per-50 is great. I've been wearing a tyr fusion legskin for meets for the last couple years and despite some techno-babble on the tyr website really all I know it does for me is get me in "meet-mode" and make me feel like I'm going fast. That's got to be worth far more than any drops in friction or whatever. I'm sure the b70 or a pro or a lzr would do more technically, they certainly have a lot more marketing and adjectives attached to them, but I refuse to believe that all the times dropped and all the records broken are solely due to them. It's still 90% swimmer, at least.
I just bought a pro legskin to wear to nats and maybe a race or two at pms. I'm taking a wait and see approach on the b70, mostly because I just don't like the thought of wearing something above my waste. But if and when I do buy a b70 I hope I drop some time but I won't feel like I'm cheating. The race is still going to hurt like all heck and a best time will still feel like an accomplishment.
Now if I get a b70 and all of a sudden drop 30 seconds in my 500 while just cruising along THEN maybe I'll change my mind. I'm pretty sure that won't happen though.
Remember, no one, to my knowledge anyway, is getting paid to be a masters swimmer. It's all about having fun. If wearing a tech suit increases the enjoyment of the sport to you then do it. If you don't like it for whatever reason then don't.
Whoa my friend Fort. :cool:
To me, myself, and I it feels like cheating. I swam fast (for me, again it's relative as to what fast is) with very little training back in Oct. wearing this suit. I have many swimmer friends say that there is a distinct advantage wearing it.
Usually, when something feels wrong, it probably is.
I've never worn a Pro (nor been one :blush:, although it pays better than teaching! :D ), so I can't state one suit over the other.
I'm not sure where the "there are plenty of fast swimmers on the East Coast" came from, or what you meant? I never said anything about regions. It just so happens that people from Pacific seem to be chiming in. I'm well aware of fast swimmers from back East. And many of them would beat me wearing a potato sack!
I'm starting to think that since it seems to be no big deal, and it's not cheating, according to people whose opinions I respect, I will probably get one and not feel guilty about it. Thanks for helping me out with this decision. :bliss:
Kristina-
I totally agree with you. As I stated earlier (re: Laura) it is all about training first and foremost. No question in my mind about that. However, when I haven't been training and do some life best times AFTER I put on a suit, it makes me think (here my husband would insert a sarcastic comment about me "thinking")
Again, still thinking about it, you're right that if you do the training you should have the best equipment. I'll get one and see what happens.
Are people wearing them in non-championship meets too? Enquiring minds want to know! :bow:
PS Nice profile pic, sprinter! You rock!
