About Allen's fear of racing in an outside lane: the 2008 USMS Rule Book states (102.10.1C) that
"It is recommended that when swimmers are seeded by time and not by age groups, the fastest two swimmers in each age group should not be seeded into outside lanes. It is recommended that they be moved inward one lane or given the center lanes in the next slowest heat, whichever is the more appropriate placement."
This is only a recommendation, but I don't see why it should be difficult to implement. It is a little less efficient, time-wise, then straight-up seeding by time...but still more efficient than the current method at nationals.
I seem to recall -- and Jeff Roddin reminded me of it recently -- that meet directors at LCM Nationals have the option of time-based seeding for 200s (as well as 400s and up) if they think it will help avoid ending the meet at an unreasonable time. At least, I THINK it is only at LCM nationals; I can't seem to find it in the Rule Book.
I prefer by time but over time I've learned to swim my own race. In the 1000 and 1650 I just find my pace and stick to it. If I know someone in my heat that may help me come up with little games while I swim. Can I keep up with him? Or can I lap him? In a SCM during the the 1500 trying to lap someone kept me motivated during that last 300.
But you should have the same visceral response, Allen. A competitor is a competitor, no matter the age.
By your line of thinking, I should have coasted into the end of my 100 and 200 IMs simply because I knew I would win my age group. I didn't coast in, because I wanted to beat Erik Hochstein, who is two age groups ahead of me.
Anyone who knows me knows I want straight seeding at nationals. I talked with Erik in Long Beach, and he agrees with me.
No offense to others in my age group, but if they had seeded by age group in Long Beach, the IMs would have not been as fun for me.
Word.
Why can't there be an option at the meet entry for Nationals -- people who prefer swimming with the respective age group will be seeded accordingly -- and then all "open seeding" will be at the end of the event.
You could even group 4 age groups together - A) all open B) 50+ C) 70+ .
Also - I would like to make seed times more accurate - time has to be achieved within the last year (Nationals) .
But you should have the same visceral response, Allen. A competitor is a competitor, no matter the age.
By your line of thinking, I should have coasted into the end of my 100 and 200 IMs simply because I knew I would win my age group. I didn't coast in, because I wanted to beat Erik Hochstein, who is two age groups ahead of me.
Anyone who knows me knows I want straight seeding at nationals. I talked with Erik in Long Beach, and he agrees with me.
No offense to others in my age group, but if they had seeded by age group in Long Beach, the IMs would have not been as fun for me.
Jeff,I race against younger guys all the time.I love to beat anyone I can.I've had many great races with younger guys and of course with Bob Strand who is younger.At Nats I just want to swim my age competition.
No offense to Jeff, but he could get all the competition he wants by swimming USS meets. For the rest of us, at nationals at least, there is enough competition within each age group that it makes sense to swim against only the people you're competing with for medals/ribbons. At regional meets, where there may only be 3-5 people in a given age group, seeding by time makes more sense.
No offense to Jeff, but he could get all the competition he wants by swimming USS meets. For the rest of us, at nationals at least, there is enough competition within each age group that it makes sense to swim against only the people you're competing with for medals/ribbons. At regional meets, where there may only be 3-5 people in a given age group, seeding by time makes more sense.
Swimming at USS meets is fun, and definitely provides competition.
But it really isn't the same. First of all, you are competing against kids less than half your age (I am as old as the fathers of most of the kids I swim against). Secondly, they do much more training.
So, while a race is a race, I would probably feel a little more urgency in competing against a Mike Ross, Jeff Commings or Paul Smith -- even if they are not in my age group -- compared to someone barely old enough to drive a car.
Look, I understand the arguments and I don't really expect nationals to change. It would probably lose some of the drama if someone sets a WR for his/her age group but gets fourth in the heat. It would make Mark Gill's job a little harder too. (Maybe that's a plus?)
But it does seem a bit of a discrepancy how almost everyone says in the other poll that PBs are the most important thing to them, that placing is secondary...but then a sizeable number of those people don't want to swim in a format that would provide the most competition and possibly push them to swim faster.
Maybe placing is more important than people like to admit to themselves?
(Personally, I'd love the chance to give Mr. Commings something to think about on the plane trip back home.)
Jeff,I have been thinking about your position.You just want a good race and don't get one swimming just your age group very often/ever,I just prefer the current situation myself.The idea to allow a choice seems the worst of both worlds to me though.
No offense to others in my age group, but if they had seeded by age group in Long Beach, the IMs would have not been as fun for me.
I've never raced as a Master in the US, but I don't take offense. I'd rather swim next to someone 5-15 yrs older than me that swims closer to my time than next to you :-) and I mean that in a nice way.
there are 4-30 active swimmers 30-34, in sweden. I say up to 30 because there are 30 people who swim the 50 free this year but not all of those races were at Masters meets. Then only 4 that swim 100 fly, 6 that swam the 200 IM, maybe 5 that swim the 400 free and 800 free. and then around 5-12 for the rest of the 50 and 100 distances.
the time gap between 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 can be seconds. my fastest 100br scm as a Master is 1:14.08, which is nearly 8 seconds slower than the #1 guy, but I am number 3. I don't think that I would swim well next to Jeff or even in the same heat. his times are more than 10 secs faster than mine. I would get stressed and not swim well.
I would much rater be seeded against the guys born in the 60's that have times 1:12-1:14.
or in the 200IM I'd rather swim against Ronny Oltner (1956) than Jeff since we have times within the same second 2:26. I'd be nearly 20 secs after....not much fun for me or Jeff.
