extremely frustrated

Push off the wall streamline, a little bit of kick and make each stroke count. I would also do an extreme front quadrant stroke, not quite a catchup stroke. I did this yesterday and 7 or 8 strokes for each 25 yards. Some do the maximum 15m underwater after the push of I just do three dolphin kicks. If you do the max 15m underwater I don't think you get the benefit from stroke counting. When I do 25m stroke counting normally I do 10 or 11 strokes per 25.

Do you swim like this: www.youtube.com/watch or do you swim flat in the water--no hip or shoulder rotation? If your stroke count is 25/25 meters you probably swim with just your arms and a relatively non-propulsive kick. That's like paddling a canoe with no shoulder or hip movement. In the video Popov moves his hips and shoulders rhythmically so he doesn't speed up, slow down. You probably know about the efficiency of constant speed from your distance running. Also the hip and shoulder rotation engages the big muscles of the back, extends his reach, and reduces frontal drag forces by placing him on his side. If you swim flat drag increases. You might try swimming with a straight arm recovery to force your shoulders and hips to rotate. Set the rhythm with your hips. Try to relax your recovering arms much like Popov in the video. --mjm

thanks so much everyone. to answer one of the questions above, the fastest i can do a 100 is 1:35 i think. (my flip turns are no good, but let's save that discussion for another day). so yeah the difference between my sprinting and my normal speed is not very much. i definitely need to work on distance per stroke--but HOW? the only drills i know are catchup and the fingertip drag. i do a little bit of catchup in every practice. my friend told me about a highly recommended coach in la jolla who videotapes you and analyzes it...costs $100 but maybe it's worth it. the only reason i'm hesitating is that the coach told him to stay out of the ocean for 3 weeks and work in the pool on his stroke...that might be hard. that coach also does master's at UCSD but unfortunately i can't make it up there for his morning practices.

my friend told me about a highly recommended coach in la jolla who videotapes you and analyzes it...costs $100 but maybe it's worth it. the only reason i'm hesitating is that the coach told him to stay out of the ocean for 3 weeks and work in the pool on his stroke...that might be hard. that coach also does master's at UCSD but unfortunately i can't make it up there for his morning practices. There are other coaches in San Diego...PM me if you'd like another suggestion. UCSD has other practices during the day besides the morning one though, right? Another coach may be a better fit.

When you say stroke, are you referring to complete cycles, or to individual arm strokes? My suggestion would be to do kick drills. Kick on your face and rotate to breathe. Kick from the hips and rotate from the hips. When you turn, just let your arm drop to your side. Focus on streamlining and keeping your head level. In the ocean, you may be carrying your head high. That will slow you down, but is a plus in choppy water. I'd like to see a sample of your swimming.

I'm going to throw my :2cents: worth in, having very recently managed to get down to the 19-20 stroke range. :bliss: First of all, considering you are a self-taught swimmer, you are actually doing really well. I had swim lessons as a kid, but apparently they didn't "take", because when I had to take up swimming after a car accident in '99, I averaged 38 strokes per 25 meters. This didn't change even after two separate "Adult Stroke Improvement" classes. One was just a one-hour workout, while the one was full of conflicting advice and was run by a bored young man more interested in chatting up the pretty young girls on the pool deck than teaching middle-aged women. After working on the drills in the original Total Immersion book, I got down to 28 strokes and plateaued there for a few years. An eight week class with a local T.I. coach brought me down another four strokes, but for a couple of months after I felt like the wheels had fallen off my stroke. Then, suddenly, it clicked. Last winter I got down to the 20/21 range but then it climbed up again after I started doing speed intervals. Now I'm back to doing a one-hour group session once a week with the same coach. (He spends the first three months of every season just working on technique.) So, what I've learned is... 1.) Progress isn't linear. There will be times when you seem to be standing still, then suddenly there will be a breakthrough. 2.) Sometimes you have to go more slowly to get faster. I want to cement the feel of these 18-20 stroke lengths very firmly into my central nervous system, so I won't jump into any speed work until I can consistently knock off 19s, length after length, without having to focus really hard on it. 3.) Changing your stroke takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. I figure I've taken off an average of 2.5 strokes per year since 2000. Good luck, and keep looking for the right coach.

I think there's a way that lots of swimmers can relate to your problem: breaststroke. Bear with me. Obviously, if you are a breaststroker, this does not apply. But for lots and lots of us non-breaststrokers, we can achieve competence in back, fly, and free, and still swim breaststroke as if the devil himself is chasing us in a dream. Even the most furious and frenetic of efforts don't seem to translate into the slightest increase in velocity. I was thinking about your plight, surfergirl, during a meet yesterday. In the 100 i.m., I was a half body length in front of this guy at the back to *** turn. I knew he'd catch up. I didn't, however, imagine that when I finally reached the final turn, after a seeming eternity of breaststroke for 25 yards, that I would see him charging back with furious freestyle before I even reached the wall. Highly dispiriting; extremely frustrating. Little surfer girl (well, maybe not so little, at 5' 7" and 145 lb. of solid muscle), with strains of Beach Boy music playing in the background here, please know that I feel your pain!

i am 5'7" and 148 pounds and very muscular, for a girl. strong looking arms and strong legs. the kicking on your side thing is interesting, i think that might be one of my problems. i remember when i first started swimming, i found it impossible to kick on my side--i basically had to stop kicking when my body was rotated. i don't think the running would negatively affect my swimming. due to shin splints, i wasn't running much until the last couple of months. i was exclusively swimming for a long time, but still not really getting anywhere. Try doing a 300 where you do 12 kicks on each side with 3 strokes for a 75, then 6 kicks/3 strokes for a 75, 3 kicks/3 strokes for a 75, and then regular free for a 75. Try doing 3 of these 300s with a minute rest in-between. I admire you if you can run and swim at the same time. When I ran track and trained in swimming at the same time, it had a major impact on my swimming speed. P.S. If you have trouble kicking on this drill, try using fins. Eventually, though, you want to be able to do it without fins.

In addition to technique, how many strokes one takes per length is dependent upon height, arm span, and build (muscular, thin, etc.). I'm curious to know your height and build. While strokes per length is indicative of efficiency, it is not necessarily always indicative of speed. I've seen plenty of inefficient swimmers do some good times in a 50 or a 1650. They are in great enough shape to overcome their inefficiency. I've seen a young girl take 33 strokes per length and do a 26 in a 50 free which by no means is slow. Better swimmers tend to be more efficient so you should strive to lower your stroke count to below 20. My guess is that you are not rotating enough and have a weak kick. Practice the following drill: With one arm extended and one arm on side, kick 12 kicks on your right side, take 3 strokes and roll to your left side and repeat. This gives you the feel for rotation and kicking on your side which is how most of the stroke is done. In addition to the work on stroke technique, I still hope you will be mindful of the training thing I mentioned. I've trained triathletes that refused to drop their 5 hours of training a day and could not understand why they weren't seeing a drop in the swim times. Interestingly enough, when a running injury forced them to drop the running for a period of time and just swim, their swimming times dramatically improved without adding additional swim yardage. i am 5'7" and 148 pounds and very muscular, for a girl. strong looking arms and strong legs. the kicking on your side thing is interesting, i think that might be one of my problems. i remember when i first started swimming, i found it impossible to kick on my side--i basically had to stop kicking when my body was rotated. i don't think the running would negatively affect my swimming. due to shin splints, i wasn't running much until the last couple of months. i was exclusively swimming for a long time, but still not really getting anywhere.

When you say stroke, are you referring to complete cycles, or to individual arm strokes? individual arm strokes.