Reaching "down" on freestyle

:smooch:I have a LOT of rotation in backstroke -- more than most -- and I think that puts less of a strain on the shoulders than the "normal" backstroke. I rotate a lot in free, too. Maybe this is one reason (the other being genetics) I haven't had shoulder problems even after many years of competitive swimming. Haven't studied your stroke in depth - it appears to have a very deep catch though, right? I have a slight backstroke phobia seeing as that was the stroke :rant3: that caused my labrum tear (working on a deep catch). You know I totally :bow: just using a masters example! :smooch:

I think Chris and Flygirl and others have made excellent points about tailoring the stroke to the individual body. However, I do think there are some basic aspects of hydrodynamics, if you will, that apply to the vast majority of body types. Obviously, strokes have been changing for the past century at least as different swimmers, either through application of physics or accidentally discovering what works (probably more the latter) contribute new refinements. But in general, for distance swimming, there is an advantage in extending the leading hand initially in the horizontal direction--it makes the human "boat" longer in the water, and for reasons that boat designers understand and I do not, a longer boat is able to move through the water at the same speed with less effort, and/or faster with the same effort, as a shorter boat. I don't think very many coaches and/or swimming scientists today think there's any advantage to pushing down on the water. In yesteryear, when the high head position was touted as a way of letting a swimmer hydroplane on top of the water, maybe a little downwards propulsion was rationalized as a way of further facilitating this. But I am pretty sure that most observers today have concluded that pushing down on the water uses up energy without moving you forward. Sprinting is much more purely propulsion-driven than distance swimming, which requires long-hull drag cutting to ensure what propulsion you do muster can last throughout the race. A short boat with a giant motor can beat a long boat with a smaller motor in a sprint. But it's likely to run out of gas over the longer haul. These basic principles seem to apply to most swimmers, regardless of body type. Maximizing propulsion and slicing drag are two different aspects, and they can't always be given equal focus if you are to do well in a given race. Sprinters need to emphasize the former at the partial expense of the latter, or risk being left behind. Distance swimmers need to emphasize the latter in order to ration the former, or risk running out of gas prematurely. How much tradeoff there is between these two demands varies somewhat among different body types, but the basic dilemma and choice is something all must face to some degree.

i like to show people the benefit of rotation by having them swim a couple of 25's, count their strokes then have them swim a couple of 25's aiming for the bottom of the pool while entering their hands right next to their ears. result; same or fewer strokes per 25. why? they are propelling forward with an exagerated high elbow and twisting motion which is not possible if one extends their arm too far before entering the water (quite common) the challenge: how far forward can you reach without sacraficing rotation and still enter cleanly. only one way to find out. another point: a deeper catch will counter balance one's sinking legs. result: kick can be used for propulsion rather than balance. .......but isn't it all about finding the balance?

I'd say most people aren't able to just go on feel. I think that is reserved for the few rather than the masses. Don't get me wrong, tailored verbal feedback and technical instruction is very useful. It's just that, there isn't one solution for everybody, and a good way to discover the differences is to focus on fluid dynamics. I also agree that the technique debate is almost pointless. There are definitely things you can do wrong but the spectrum of what's right is much greater.

Wow isn't that an exciting concept. I still prefer to extend drop to the catch when swimming distance swims. I drop to the catch in a sprit. Rotation is not a new concept some say rotate the shoulders, others say the kick rotates, I have even heard the big toe is the rotator. i like to show people the benefit of rotation by having them swim a couple of 25's, count their strokes then have them swim a couple of 25's aiming for the bottom of the pool while entering their hands right next to their ears. result; same or fewer strokes per 25. why? they are propelling forward with an exagerated high elbow and twisting motion which is not possible if one extends their arm too far before entering the water (quite common) the challenge: how far forward can you reach without sacraficing rotation and still enter cleanly. only one way to find out. another point: a deeper catch will counter balance one's sinking legs. result: kick can be used for propulsion rather than balance. .......but isn't it all about finding the balance?

while entering their hands right next to their ears there you go - he loves this drill and that would be about the last drill I would have anybody do - enter next to their ears - I think that would cost you about 1/3 of your stroke length - but obviously it must work for some people. All these things though make you wonder about all the swimmers getting the same drills in a large group setting. Catch-up Free may be a great drill for some swimmers - but maybe it just not a good idea for others. How many swimmers get 1-1 technique advice ?

How many swimmers get 1-1 technique advice ? usually anyone who asks.

I rotate a lot too, both in front crawl and backstroke. I think it definitely helps with the shoulders, and I think it helps your stroke efficiency too. I know when we do stroke rate drills, the more I rotate (without making it an unnatural motion), the fewer strokes I take per length.

I was working on EFV last night. It feels so amazing. I hope it is faster. I was doing it all wrong before so I can't wait to see what my time is in 2 weeks.

my comments in bold But in general, for distance swimming, there is an advantage in extending the leading hand initially in the horizontal direction--it makes the human "boat" longer in the water, and for reasons that boat designers understand and I do not, a longer boat is able to move through the water at the same speed with less effort, and/or faster with the same effort, as a shorter boat.yes, but many swimmers develop an upward scoop with their hand. this has no benefit. another undesirable result from over reaching (without rotation) is the dreaded fish-tail. I don't think very many coaches and/or swimming scientists today think there's any advantage to pushing down on the water. In yesteryear, when the high head position was touted as a way of letting a swimmer hydroplane on top of the water, maybe a little downwards propulsion was rationalized as a way of further facilitating this. But I am pretty sure that most observers today have concluded that pushing down on the water uses up energy without moving you forward.i would differentiate between "pushing down" and "driving down" ...more specifically driving to the catch position. (for me, finger tips are somewhere between 12 and 18 inches below the surface) my focus it to get them (finger tips) there in an eliptical arch rather than a straight line.