I picked "supersuits" because that is what Mr. Freeze called his suit in the movie The Incredibles.....:D
Rather than add this to one of the Dara Torres threads (!), I decided to post here some analysis I did of several races at Olympic Trials. At least one person here asserts the super suits are worth 2-5% of improvement. I don't believe there is any data to show that - regardless of what swimmers said about their experience in the suits. Note that I do not doubt the suits are faster - I just don't believe they alone can produce a 2-5% improvement in performance.
I looked at six events at OTs: men's 100 free, 200 free, and 200 fly; women's 100 free, 200 free, and 200 back. The swimmers in these races were likely to wear a bodysuit. We all saw that Phelps and several others wore legskins in their IM, back, and breaststroke races.
For these races I tracked the swims of all swimmers that qualified for semi-finals because they had at least two swims at OTs. I picked races shorter than 400s because 400s didn't have semis. I assume the swimmers that make it to semis are "elite" swimmers. They should have easily attained trials cuts and there are reasonable odds they didn't have to taper to get their cuts. These swimmers are likely to be more experienced and less likely to have a shockingly good swim coming from nowhere. I picked their best swim (prelims, semis, and finals), compared to their qualifying time, and calculated the % improvement (or not) for each swimmer, then the field.
Of course I assume all of these swimmers wore a LZR, Tracer, or B70. I watched every OT finals and I only remember one swimmer in a FS-Pro.
What I found:
The average drop in time was:
Men's 100 free: 1.0%
Men's 200 free: 0.97%
Men's 200 fly: 0.90%
Women's 100 free: 0.21%
Women's 200 free: 0.53%
Women's 200 back: 1.51%
The best % improvement in time was Morgan Scroggy: -3.62% in 200 back.
The worst % performance was Amanda Weir: +2.30% in 100 free.
The best male % improvement was Scott Robison: -3.43% in 200 free
The worst male % performance was Eddie Erazo: +1.46% in 200 fly
78% of these swimmers swam at least one time faster than their qualifying time.
21% of these swimmer swam slower than their qualifying time.
1 swimmer's best time (Klete Keller) was exactly his qualifying time (200 free).
15% of the swimmers improved > 2% in one of these events. These swims were:
Alex Righi -100 free, 2.38%
Scot Robison - 200 free, 3.43% (came out of heat 3)
Larsen Jensen - 200 free, 2.57%
Danny Beal - 200 free, 2.11%
Ricky Berens - 200 free, 2.00%
Andrew Callahan - 200 fly, 2.82%
Curtis Dauw - 200 fly, 2.74%
Gil Stovall - 200 fly, 2.33%
Matt Patton - 200 fly, 2.10%
Morgan Scroggy - 200 back, 3.62%
Elizabeth Beisel - 200 back, 3.06%
Bonnie Brandon - 200 back, 2.58%
Erica Meissner - 200 back, 2.44%
Caitlin Iverson - 200 back, 2.10%
I didn't compare to the 2004 Olympic Trials because that would take more work and I don't know if the data is readily available. We do know that the 2004 trials were swum outdoors in a shallower pool. No LZRs. 6 WRs vs. 9 WRs in 2008. The USA-S site says: "According to USA Swimming statistics, almost half the swimmers competing at the 2008 U.S. Olympic Trials – or 44 percent – swam lifetime bests at this meet. That number breaks down to 39 percent of women swimming lifetime bests, and 49 percent of men swimming lifetime bests throughout the course of the meet." I expect the elite swimmers to perform better than the field as a whole - mainly because they didn't have to scramble to make their cuts.
You guys/gals can form your own opinions. My guess is that these improvements are in the general range of typical USA OT swims. The 2008 Trials weren't incredibly fast compared to past trials. The big stars (Phelps, Coughlin, Hoff, Lochte) generally didn't improve much from their best times - probably because they didn't taper fully for trials.
i135.photobucket.com/.../OTM100Free.jpgi135.photobucket.com/.../OTM200Free.jpgi135.photobucket.com/.../OTM200Fly.jpgi135.photobucket.com/.../OTW100Free.jpgi135.photobucket.com/.../OTW200Free.jpgi135.photobucket.com/.../OTW200Back.jpg
I wore a TYR suit at worlds two years ago and went:
50 fly 25.90
100 fly 59.04
last weeked unrested wearing a B70:
50 fly 25.96
100 fly 59.00
i don't expect as bif of drops as when wasn't using the new wetsuits but we'll see.
To achieve such an effect, your body position must really suck then... :)
It might be a body shape issue.
I was just joking, based on his earlier post.
I agree that body shape is a major issue, though -- for that particular aspect -- I don't see how the later generation suits really improve over the earlier suits.
To achieve such an effect, your body position must really suck then... :)
I think the effect of the suit varies by person somewhat. I'm betting the Clydesdales benefit more. 5% seems high to me. But I'm willing to buy up to 2%. Although I'm only a masters swimmer, I'm going to compare my LC zones times from last year (Pro) to this year (B70) and assess, although unfortunately I was in better shape last year and other factors effect the analysis.
I considered this. But for just these six events - there are 96 swimmers (some are duplicated). I would have to go to the USA-S times database and I just don't have time to do that right now. That's fine if you don't have the time. Nor do I. But it does have a large impact on your data and therefore reduces the usefulness of your analysis. SwimNews rankings are generally accurate and it's an easy site to work off if you do get the time. All these swimmers raced LC tapered some time last year.
Take the women's 200 free for instance, Allison Schmitt dropping to a 1:55 from a 1:59 rather than her 1:57 in a LZR from this year. Hoff dropping to a 1:55 from a 1:57 low instead of from a 1:56 low. Julia Smit from a 2:00+ down to a 1:56, instead of from a 1:57 to a 1:56. Your data does not account for the improvements the suits made only the swimmers improvements during the year wearing the same suit. You also only analyze the top swimmers which is fine but these are the athletes that are most likely to have already worn the suit at previous Grand Prix meets and sectionals this year.
I quoted 2-5% based on claims made by Speedo about the LZR & B70 for its Nero...and i stand by it because the comparison Hoff made (thanks that was interesting and validats what several coaches and simmers have told me of how slow the pool was) is apples to oranges...the claims of improvements are based on times in the last generation of suits to this generation.
And if you have not seen, touched or swam in this "rubber" generation of suits I look forward to coming back and chatting with all of us about it after you do.
By the way, in spekaing with a coach this afternoon about this his positon was that swimmers who had exceptional body position saw the least amount of improvement (Phelps) while those who were no doubt excellant before found much larger drops (Weber-Gale).
Now for the next tech debate/controverssy...the new caps claing to reduce drap from an old latex/silicone cap by as much as 5%. Seemed to me the vast majority of the swimmers were wearing them.
Paul - what is the last generation of suits? FS2 or FSPro? If so - I still don't see a 2% improvement. I just compared Stephanie Rice's 400 IM WR (4:31.46) vs. not Hoff's but Yana Klochkova's 2000 WR (4:33.59). That's just a .78% improvement. Yana was surely wearing something old (Arena? Aquablade?). How about Bernard or Phelps vs. Peter Van Den Hoogenbond in the 100 and 200 in 2000? PVDH probably wore a brief. Bernard's WR is just .72% faster - Phelps 1.43% faster. Peirsol vs. Krazelburg in the 100 - 1.17%That's just a few I looked at that HAVE TO span multiple generations of swimsuits.
BTW - Shubert said "2% advantage over any other suit."
The WR progression for men is easily viewed at:
www.usaswimming.org/.../DesktopDefault.aspx
As for the cap - if the cap is 5% faster than previous caps, but the cap is only 5% of the drag, then it should produce a .25% improvement. But we don't know how much drag the cap causes overall - and it surely varies by stroke because of head position. The caps definitely LOOKED fast....:D
That's fine if you don't have the time. Nor do I. But it does have a large impact on your data and therefore reduces the usefulness of your analysis. SwimNews rankings are generally accurate and it's an easy site to work off if you do get the time. All these swimmers raced LC tapered some time last year.
Take the women's 200 free for instance, Allison Schmitt dropping to a 1:55 from a 1:59 rather than her 1:57 in a LZR from this year. Hoff dropping to a 1:55 from a 1:57 low instead of from a 1:56 low. Julia Smit from a 2:00+ down to a 1:56, instead of from a 1:57 to a 1:56. Your data does not account for the improvements the suits made only the swimmers improvements during the year wearing the same suit. You also only analyze the top swimmers which is fine but these are the athletes that are most likely to have already worn the suit at previous Grand Prix meets and sectionals this year.
No argument with your comments. One of the problems is knowing who wore a supersuit earlier this year. I didn't think they were widely available to elites until spring of this year. The other is that comparing times - no matter what - is comparing a human racing in a pool. Who really knows how rested a swimmer is? Until someone runs a controlled test of a swimmer in a LZR vs. a non-LZR suit - it is impossible to isolate the suit's effect. Oh and that swimmer can't be someone sponsored by Speedo.
Paul - when are you racing again tapered? What suit did you wear at SC Nats? You can be a test case.
We should also get Ande to test with varying fingernail length. :-)
nice swimming paul
I have a feeling you're going to swim very fast
how much do you tend to drop when you taper?
swimmers improve for many reasons
the suit the swimmer wears can be one of them
but there are many factors swimmers can play with to improve performance
1) mind stuff: IPS, psych, goals, reasons, daily actions, beliefs, acting as if
2) technique
3) training / conditioning
4) equipment suit / pool
5) strength
6) proper weight
7) proper swimming
elite swimmers need to experiment
do a lot of testing to figure out which suit they swim the fastest in
then they need to get used to that suit
LZR is the best marketed suit
so of course they have the most world records
they have the most signed swimmers
I don't know which suit is fastest
What I do know is
B70's are available now
they are more affordable than LZR's
many masters records are going to get rewritten
as elite masters compete in these new generation suits
records are also going to drop as the faster younger swimmers age up
one other interesting thing is
when swimmers wear the full body tech suits
shaving doesn't matter as much
swimmers should still shave exposed areas
hairs won't poke through the rubber suits
shaving doesn't matter as much
Hofffam - this is about as BAD a way to compare times as you can get.
US swimming has all the data in the world - but that may not support your argument ? The trials data for 2004 is just as available as 2008.
How about this - wait till the end of the year - and pick 10 events. We can compare top 10 / 20 / 30 or 50 in the US since 1997. I bet you anything that the drop this year was by far the largest in any of the years - I will say at least double of any previous year.
Of course it's not 5% - but it's in the 2% range
Hofffam - this is about as BAD a way to compare times as you can get.
US swimming has all the data in the world - but that may not support your argument ? The trials data for 2004 is just as available as 2008.
How about this - wait till the end of the year - and pick 10 events. We can compare top 10 / 20 / 30 or 50 in the US since 1997. I bet you anything that the drop this year was by far the largest in any of the years - I will say at least double of any previous year.
Of course it's not 5% - but it's in the 2% range
My comparison isn't a piece of scientific research. It was simply an effort to see if the supersuits produced time drops like some say they would. I don't claim it is perfect. I'd like to determine if the suits ALONE can produce a 2% or more improvement in performance. I don't believe that if an elite swimmer races a 50 free in a FSPro they will be 2% faster if they put on a LZR.
You might be right about this year producing the biggest drop in some time. But how much of it is the Olympic effect? How much is advances in training? How much is swimmers competing longer? Maybe after the Olympics are finished this would be fun to study....
