Torres out of 100

I think the connection between the two issues is tenuous at best. There is no direct evidence that she is cheating and it is unprovable that she isn't, so it is simply a matter of faith either way (ie, you either assume she is or she isn't). Personally, I cannot believe she is cheating if the ONLY (or main) evidence is that she is swimming very fast. It means something that she is voluntarily going beyond the minimum requirements. However, having been burned in the past, like some I am guarded in my attitude towards her achievements. Intellectually I can appreciate what she is doing, which is ground-breaking, but it has no emotional resonance with me. I admire her achievements while at the same time I confess that I don't really find HER all that admirable. (Dara-defenders, please don't jump down my throat. I am not accusing her of cheating nor am I calling her a terrible person.) And I also do not admire her -- as a competitor -- for skipping out of the 100, whether you want to call it selfish or whatever. Reasonable people can differ on this and I certainly see the logic behind doing it, I just don't happen to agree. Well said Chris...I just happen to be one of the others in regards to the 100.

Interesting read on Dara and a supposed female bias. Personally, I think it's more of an age bias. grg51.typepad.com/.../does-dara-torre.html "Does Dara Torres suffer from a double standard of doping scrutiny? Interesting column from the normally logical Gwen Knapp today. She wonders why a 40 year-old male like Barry Bonds received a free pass when he belted a home run every time he spit, meanwhile a successful 41 year-old female swimmer -- Dara Torres -- comes under the intense scrutiny of the doping-suspicions crowd. (Torres simply delivered a baby at age ~39, then records 5% faster times in her postpartum swimming years than she did in her college competitions; maybe she cut down on that college drinking)."

I don't know Dennis either but it seems to me that the 200 fly is a particularly difficult race to go after in your forties. :eek: Spitz's choice of the 100 fly is still I think a bigger challenge than the 50 free.

knelson, Dennis places 5th in the 200 fly in the 1983 summer nationals in Clovis and Dara places 4th in the 100 free at the 1984 Trials. They were comparable in their talent and performances long ago. Dennis trains solidly compared to Dara and quite a bit more than most masters swimmers. I think the point is that Dara's success is quite a bit more noticeable than Dennis's success. John Smith

knelson, Dennis places 5th in the 200 fly in the 1983 summer nationals in Clovis and Dara places 4th in the 100 free at the 1984 Trials. They were comparable in their talent and performances long ago. Dennis trains solidly compared to Dara and quite a bit more than most masters swimmers. I think the point is that Dara's success is quite a bit more noticeable than Dennis's success. John Smith John, I agree with most of this but Dara's best event has always seemed to be the 50 hasn't it? Her turn leaves a lot to be desired....even now.

John, I agree with most of this but Dara's best event has always seemed to be the 50 hasn't it? Her turn leaves a lot to be desired....even now. tjburk, Agreed, Dara's upper body strength is what truly stands out in the race. Her start, turn and even her kick seem very average. Her stroke is long and her power is outstanding. I do like the fact that she is beating people with the new ugly straight arm European/Aussi freestyle. John Smith

So now making the finals at Olympic trials is the same as winning 9 olympic medals ? And since progress in training makes no difference I should start believing that I was a better Freestyle swimmer than Mark Spitz ? My times were better just a little more than a decade later. Every 200 Free Finalist at this year's trials is a better swimmer than 2xtime Gold Medalist Daniel Loader ? Dennis is a great swimmer, but he is workhorse - he is a "dog" (out of the cats and dogs interview about swimmers) who has to work for everything. I bet you anything that there are countless swimmers at all levels (even Olympic) out there who are cats - trained like dogs - and hated swimming for it. What exactly is the "allowable" time difference to previous best times ? Just so I know for this summer.

We gave you examples. How about Dennis Baker, Dr. Ron Karnough, Karlyn Pipes. . . Etc. None have beaten best times now that they are in their 40s You sure about Karlyn? I know she's swimming a hair slower now than in her early 40s, but are you sure her masters times aren't faster than her previous personal bests?

How many of them have been training essentially full time for the past two years and have the full complement of coach(es), trainers, masseuses, nannies and whatever other support staff that Dara has? I once suggested to my wife that we hire an au pair girl from Sweden, but she said no. Maybe if I had told her it would help my swimming she would have agreed.

Chris, I agree, Lezak's swims were eye popping. We'll see if he has the motivation in 7 years to make a comeback and equal his times. ehoch, I'm sorry but Mark did train seriously for his 40 year old comeback in California. Kirk, Let's throw out Karlyn from the comparison as she was never a US national champion in her day. She was more of a "John Smith" at US Nationals.... :-) John Smith John Smith