As I crawled back into the pool today fat and out of shape, I wondered: Don't sprinters need some minimal aerobic work? I see that Ande is doing none whatsoever and Paul advises not "fighting fat" in the pool. I do a lot of race pace training and cross training. But still, is just a little aerobic work called for? I can tell I don't need any for 50s, but my 100s could use a little something. I don't think I have the substantial swimming aerobic base that people like Ande have because I was out of the pool for so many years .. So I'm either taking my 100s out too slow for fear of dying or actually dying. Does aerobic work help counter this? Or do I need more lactate work such as doing 100s with huge amounts of rest?
Former Member
Wait a minute. Jonathan is a sprinter. Is this weight set good for sprinters or distance swimmers? Or both?
Look, the 200 is all about sprint endurance, it doesn't qualify as a "true" distance event. Most people shy away from that event because it can feel terrible if you're not prepared properly for the race.
My 50 speed is okay, but the SCM 100 and 200 free I did recently converts to 46.02, and 1:42.82 short course yards, does that make me a distance swimmer? No, I've learned how to simulate the effects of a 100-200 race, without over-training in the pool.
Even an 800 warm-up and some DPS work in the pool is more aerobic than many other sports. It's pretty much impossible to swim, even easy, without gaining an aerobic benefit. Perhaps this discussion is purely semantics, because many people say aerobic training, and what they really mean is pushing the thresholds for middle-distance speed.
The program that I've designed may in fact only work for people with similar body types, but it is also a reflection of time management as well. With my busy work/life schedule I can only commit a certain amount of time to training, so I want the best result possible without excessive outputs of energy.
That is why 60-80 reps in the gym has been the solution that is working for me. All I can say is, how I feel at the end of 100-200 race far exceeds anything I've tried in the past, even when I did swim mass-meters as an age-grouper.
Look, the 200 is all about sprint endurance, it doesn't qualify as a "true" distance event. Most people shy away from that event because it can feel terrible if you're not prepared properly for the race.
My 50 speed is okay, but the SCM 100 and 200 free I did recently converts to 46.02, and 1:42.82 short course yards, does that make me a distance swimmer? No, I've learned how to simulate the effects of a 100-200 race, without over-training in the pool.
Even an 800 warm-up and some DPS work in the pool is more aerobic than many other sports. It's pretty much impossible to swim, even easy, without gaining an aerobic benefit. Perhaps this discussion is purely semantics, because many people say aerobic training, and what they really mean is pushing the thresholds for middle-distance speed.
The program that I've designed may in fact only work for people with similar body types, but it is also a reflection of time management as well. With my busy work/life schedule I can only commit a certain amount of time to training, so I want the best result possible without excessive outputs of energy.
That is why 60-80 reps in the gym has been the solution that is working for me. All I can say is, how I feel at the end of 100-200 race far exceeds anything I've tried in the past, even when I did swim mass-meters as an age-grouper.
With times like those, you could probably fake a pretty good distance race.
George, I find it somewhat amusing that you advise not worrying about all those things...and then proceed to provide your own numbers! (I don't know my own numbers for ANY of those things, not even my resting HR.)
Your point is well taken, though. I would only disagree with you that working on "fast hard sprint repeats" and "all out sprints" comes naturally and will "just happen" in masters swimming.
At the masters level I do not believe that is true at all. I think the majority of practices at teams arouund the country are predominantly "medium speed" without too much rest...basically, what I would call "fitness swimming" rather than preparing to race.
Now, of course, the majority of USMS members have no interest in racing so maybe that is okay. It is maybe hard to convince those people to really push themselves to the edge.
George, it's a discussion forum! We're supposed to mull things over. Besides, people may not have time to do all the different types of aerobic work.
I 100% agree with Chris' point about "medium speed" masters practices. My own team has pretty well thought out workouts, but still, most of it's medium speed. Very little race pace. (Although on occasion, we'll have sprinter sets.) In fact, I just urged a friend who has hit a bit of a plateau to stop going to as many structured practices, swim on her own more and do some speed work. Some fast 25s beats 5000 yards any day if you want to improve your sprints.
So I've been reading through this whole thread (way cool thread, Fortress), but haven't said anything because I don't really feel qualified to speak to this topic.
However, I think that Chris and Leslie have nailed it when they said that too many masters practices are at medium speed. I think part of the problem is that when many masters (certainly me included!!!) think "aerobic workout" they think of a medium speed type set. Medium speed doesn't mean easy, but it is nowhere near race-speed or even max workout speed.
For me, I think aerobic set and I think something like:
15x100 - First 5 on 1:30, 2nd 5 on 1:25, last 5 back on 1:30 fastest speed on the last 5. For me, 1:30 is a pretty doable interval and 1:25 is doable also, though unpleasant. I'll certainly be hurting by the end of this set but if I'm really honest with myself, I'm still going medium speed.
Maybe part of what is needed is a mind shift... that aerobic can also mean ouch ouch ouch speed. Of all these posts, this one from Rich Abrahams has stuck with me (exerpted):
Personally, I like to work on all the different energy systems, although not at the same workout. Since I sometimes (foolishly) compete in the 200 free, I do some high level aerobic work once or twice a week, but the sets are never more than 1,000 meters. An example would be 4 X 50's with 10 seconds rest (i.e. broken 200's) X 5 with about 2 minutes rest between the broken swims. I subtract the 30 seconds of rest intervals to get my cumulative time and try to be within 5 seconds of my best 200 time.
My thought was, "Holy crap!!! That's an aerobic workout!" Our team has coached workouts, and they are often very good workouts, well thought out. However, we hardly ever do sets along these lines. I can't imagine that adding such high-intensity aerobic workouts wouldn't help your 100's... kinda span the gap between all-out 25s/50s and repeat 100s/200s at medium aerobic speed.
congratulations
sounds like you're training better and swimming faster
your current speed is related to how fast you were in your youth
but there's a list of factors that determines your speed now like:
1) what physical condition are you in now
2) what kind of training have you done recently (in the last year)
3) how strong you are
4) how many years you are from your peak training and ability
5) how old you are
6) what kind of pool
7) what kind of suit you wore
8) how mentally tough you are
9) how fast you've been in practice recently
it's very possible for you to swim faster than you did when you were 16
I have to agree with this comment. The best results I have had are a direct result of race paced training. I have managed to take 7 seconds off my 200 free time since January by swimming it just like I would in a race during practice. Going all out and getting my splits. Getting my body to get used to the lactic acid build up and learning to cope with the associated pain. Prior to this I was doing sets of 5 x 200m at 3:30 or 3:00 and my time just stayed the same. Now I will only do one 200 in a practice (and not everyday either) but I will do it FAST for time and good splits. Afterwards I might do 100's on 1:20 or even 200's on 3:00 but just cruising, concentrating on my stroke and not really exerting myself too much.
Here's a bit of a digression.
I have always had this sneaking suspicion that our current speeds are determined by how far we pushed ourselves in our youths. So if we raised out lactate threshold so that our body could accept the pain of doing a, say, 53 sec 100 when we were young it shouldn't be too difficult to get close to that again when we are older.
It's like your body has memory of this pain and if you could cope with it before, you can probably cope with it now (as long as your heart doesn't pack up)! However, if you never crossed this threshold in your youth, and even though you may be just as physically gifted as the person in the lane next to you who did, it is going to be much more difficult to beat them.
I am not saying that it is not possible. Just that it is going to be more difficult. In fact, I am hoping that I can do it myself. I was only really a useful swimmer when I was younger and stopped swimming at age 16 so I feel I never really developed my potential. I am hoping I can surpass some of those times this year.
Stacy & Jonathan,
You both referenced "short course" 50/100 times....since we are now officially in long course season this discussion needs to change a bit IMHO.
I will reiterate that its apples to oranges comparing SC to LC and unless you are swimming only 50's then you have to have more of an aerobic base if you want to be competitive in the 100.
Strength is still important, but for me when training LC I'll lift 1x a week doing power work on complimentary muscle groups and use power racks/cords/fins-paddles 2x a week in the pool...during SCY/SCM season it will be 2-3x a week weights and 2-3x a week cords/racks....I'll also swim closer to 3000m per workout 4x a week vs. 2000-2500 3-4x a week during SC season.
Granted I'm focusing not just on the 50/100 for long course but the 200 as well.
The reason I was "way faster" in college?? I lifted multiple times a week and swam 2x a day.
This is the thing that's hard for me to get a handle on: that you did two-a-days, but still did nearly all race-paced swimming. Both workouts were primarily speed based? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, just something I've never encountered personally.
Strength is still important, but for me when training LC I'll lift 1x a week doing power work on complimentary muscle groups and use power racks/cords/fins-paddles 2x a week in the pool...during SCY/SCM season it will be 2-3x a week weights and 2-3x a week cords/racks....I'll also swim closer to 3000m per workout 4x a week vs. 2000-2500 3-4x a week during SC season.
I dunno, Paul, that sure seems like A LOT. Combine all that with your spinning workouts and I think you're in danger of being voted off the USMS island by that other Smith for excessive training.
