Is Dara Dirty? Poll

It's hardly a cliche and it isn't just for criminals. It's another way of saying that a hypothesis can't be accepted as fact without proof -- a basic principle of critical thought. The alternative is proving a negative; that's what leads to witch hunts. Speculation isn't proof. I have no idea what this means. Gull - please translate to North Carolina speak so I can understand it. Referencing bbq and tobacco will help.

I remember an Irish swimmer named Michelle Smith who went from being ranked near 100th in the world to all of a sudden (and I can't remember exactly what she did) breaking a world record, winning an Olympics, whatever it was? Lo and behold she was dirty, and so was her track and field hubby... I could see if Dara had come out of nowhere and was suddenly making her first Oly team, etc... however, she's been this fast since she was freakin' 14!!! No surprise here. I think she has put swimming as THE number one priority in her life and her success shows it, that plus her phenomenal talent. Am I saying she isn't dirty? No, I don't know. Only she knows. If I had to jump off the fence though, I'd say she isn't... :2cents:

It's a sad state of affairs in the swimming community (and the sports community as a whole) when this issue is raised. Yeah I guess it's sad when we discuss Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Landis, Michelle Smith, Ben Johnson, Chinese Women, East German Women. Shame on us for bringing it up to the sports community.

It's hardly a cliche and it isn't just for criminals. It's another way of saying that a hypothesis can't be accepted as fact without proof -- a basic principle of critical thought. The alternative is proving a negative; that's what leads to witch hunts. Speculation isn't proof. Thanks Ken.....I think you have articulated my opinion a lot better than I did....or could in my last posting. I do think that maybe my last posting was a bity preachy though....It is true that Darra isn't on actual trial like a criminal....but there does seem to be a kind of trial here none-the-less IMO (and in some other's opinions as well perhaps?). So I personally feel that the so called cliche that Geek is referring to should also apply here as well....an opinion I'm sure that is not shared by everyone though.

Borko - give it a rest and get off the high horse. No one has accused her of doping. People are arguing about her achievements at this point in her life. Given the current state of sports, it is certainly expected that this type of discussion would arise. And, to be honest, Torres anticipated it also. Not a single poster has said she is guilty of anything, just honest discourse. You might recall Floyd Landis a year ago if you want evidence as to why there is skepticism, or Barry Bonds last night, or the entire Tour last month. All of these folks spouted the same stuff you are spouting above, every single one of them. As to innocent until proven guilty, that is the oldest cliche in the book. That is for criminals, not sports stars and discussions of dopping.

Apparently the only person who has accused her of being dirty here is "Larry" per the poll results. Be that as it may, were I reading these threads about myself I would most likely walk away with the idea that several of these posters think I am doping.

I thought we were just having a discussion too, and musing over the possible bases for an admittedly fabulous performance. The true believers have definitely been very "accusatory" toward those on the fence though. :duel: Now, the guy with the blog, he's accusing. But, as far as I know, he's not participating in this "discussion forum." I may not have articulated my intentions very well so I will just say that I was referring more to people like the guy who wrote the blog in my postings ....and not to those who are either on the fence or think she might be guilty of doping....I don't think anyone can say for sure what the real truth of the matter is based on the evidence presented anyway....My point is that sense the woman's honor is being questioned here (or at least thats the way I see it), then I believe she shouldn't be denegrated the way she was on that guy's blog (or by others as well) as being definitely guilty of something without any real proof. Its too bad that there aren't good enough tests currently available to prove a person's innocence in this situation....I feel that Darra's case is different than Bonds' case (or many of the other athletes mentioned here who are also either under suspicion for doping or have been caught redhanded or admitted to doping) because the evidence that was presented against Darra by the blogger guy was based soley on the fact that he felt it was impossible for Darra to swim as fast as she did without doping....which is very speculative evidence IMO for being as accusatory as he was being in his blog. I Just wanted to clear that part up here thats all. If my postings appeared to be accusatory towards anyone else other than the ones I have tried to identify in this posting then I apologize. p.s. The guy's blog may have not been directly part of this discussion but it seemed to me that the guy's blog was the primary basis for the ensuing discussion none-the-less since it was the original posting on the topic as far as I could tell?

no surprise Vendt's been training like an animal for years Erik Vendt's comeback is starting to look pretty impressive as well, if not suspect. What with the house cleaning he did in the 1500M (CR) and the AR he set in the 800M, one could start to get suspicious of somebody who is gaining so much ground so quickly. :rolleyes: But seriously...everybody is certainly entitled to an opinion. I just hope that some testing that will satisfy the skeptics will come along before too long.

Erik Vendt's comeback is starting to look pretty impressive as well, if not suspect. What with the house cleaning he did in the 1500M (CR) and the AR he set in the 800M, one could start to get suspicious of somebody who is gaining so much ground so quickly. :rolleyes: But seriously...everybody is certainly entitled to an opinion. I just hope that some testing that will satisfy the skeptics will come along before too long.

Borko - give it a rest and get off the high horse. No one has accused her of doping. People are arguing about her achievements at this point in her life. Given the current state of sports, it is certainly expected that this type of discussion would arise. And, to be honest, Torres anticipated it also. Not a single poster has said she is guilty of anything, just honest discourse. I thought we were just having a discussion too, and musing over the possible bases for an admittedly fabulous performance. The true believers have definitely been very "accusatory" toward those on the fence though. :duel: Now, the guy with the blog, he's accusing. But, as far as I know, he's not participating in this "discussion forum."