How much endurance training?

There's a difference between trying to mirror the world's best and figuring out how you swim best. There are tons of fads in training or maybe pendlum swings is a better analogy? There are times like in the 70s when it was all about cranking out the yardage, no matter the technique. Then it became more about finesse, and I think there seems to be a return to yardage cranking. Michael Phelps may take a breath every stroke on fly, but that hardly means it is the most efficient way for everyone to swim it. Doing that just because he does is following a fad. Figuring out that for a 100 you will swim faster if you breath every 3 is not. You have to do what works for you, I think that was the point.

Well, Dave, as you might have noticed if you actually read (rather than just reacted to) my post, I wasn't claiming anything was a "fad." I was just referencing GoodSmith's thread and his opinion. Nothing more. So you might answer your own question and educate us all. QUOTE] read your post, read smith's post, thank you very much. Well, if you read my post than why fire back that response at me? Thank you very much. The distinction between a "fad" and an "evolutionary" change is semantics. I guess we could resort to the dictionary. Here's a likely "fad:" Everyone trying out Michael Phelps' breathing pattern in fly. I bet many will give it a whirl and, after a short bit, reject it. That's what I did. I'm sure there are many more examples like that, but right now I have to go pick up my kid at swim practice, so I will leave it for others to elucidate. Aw, look, while I was busy writing, my baby sister gave the same example as me. :rofl:

Nobody messes with my family ... ;) People tend to get caught up in semantics a lot on here and attack instead of asking for clarification ... I'm trying to think of a way of clarifying the breaststroke example, but I can't quite word it correctly ...

The problem with that is the reason Phelps breaths so much is because of the mechanics of his stroke. He is so powerful and has such a strong undulation that for him it makes the most sense. If you do the 200 fly and breathe every stroke power to ya' I'll stick with my 50s and maybe the 100 ... Fads in the swimming world take longer and stay around longer than clothes do because it is an action and it takes longer to do and train and then see the results. It's not buying a tube top wearing it once then tossing it ...

fad :A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze. evolution:A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. semantic? Very peevish of you. ;) I believe "fad" was John's word, not mine. Nonethleless, it's still somewhat semantic. I would point out that "fads" can be a subcategory of "evolution." "Fads" are part of the evolutionary "process." When a "fad" is temporarily embraced and then exposed as unworthy, that assessment furthers the process of evolution. Then, the hunt is on for a new technique or compromise position between "fad" and old/new technique in an attempt to find a "more complex and better form." As to breaststroke, I would like to hear a breastroker weigh in because I think some of breaststroke "innovations" I previously listed seem to fall into the subcategory of "fads" or "short lived components" of evolution. For example, that super high breaststroke where Amanda Beard came out of the water almost to her belly button. Not universally embraced or used "by the vast majority of world class swimmers." As to Phelps, I guess I gotta defend my family. At least on sprint butterfly, the "vast majority of world class swimmers" are not breathing every stroke. So, right now, it's still in the "fad" category, and might be a "problem" for some. (BTW, I believe my baby sister was using the word "problem" to describe the analysis in Dave's post, not Phelps' fly.) Maybe folks are still deciding whether it suits their style or not. Maybe they'll adapt the "fad" and breath every cycle for certain portions of certain races. It sure doesn't work for me on the 50. Nope, not at all. It's a real "problem" for me, and I've timed myself both ways. I do breathe more on a 100, but not every single stroke. As to the "endurance" aspect of fly, which Terry kindly reminded us was the original theme (not that such a reminder is relevant; evolutionary thread tangents are commonplace), I got no problem with breathing every stroke on a 200 fly. That's probably how I'd swim it now to attempt to stave off immediate oxygen debt. That's not how I swam it when I was young and in shape though. But I'm good with breathing every stroke on distance fly. I'm mindful that that's probably good for many masters swimmers and maybe some world class ones too. Still not gonna try it out though. I'd lose count and I've been spending too much time on technique and not enough on engine building for that race. ;)

I think the great swimmers have an inherent feel for what makes them swim fast. Hydrodynamic proprioception if you will. They adapt their strokes to what makes them swim fast. The rest of us then try to emulate them because they are swimming so fast. Problem is it doesn't work quite as well for us because we just can't feel what's making us fast the way they can. We don't have that constant feedback while swimming.

Read Wayne's articles"what went wrong with the wave Breaststroke" and"What went right with the wave breaststroke" at breaststroke.info. Thats a good description of a fad in breaststroke(the what went wrong.) People for years were taught not to roll on free. Was that a fad or a blind end on the evolution tree? Was teaching that propulsion was primarily lift generated a fad or will we look back at say that thinking it was primarily drag generated a fad? I do agree that fad is not a good word to describe changes from one technique to another,paradigm shift?? It is certainly true in the history of swimming that sometimes"everyone" is doing some action and a few years later that concept seems quaint. Dave,since you are with Terry in wanting to revolutionize swimming I would think you would agree with that.

I got a question. Which is better for endurance? waking up not eating breakfast and run 5 miles and eat after or eating breakfast before and running 5 miles. If you dont eat you have no energy and get tired faster and work harder. If you eat you are energized and run faster. What do get more out of? Warren: Speaking as a swimmer/runner, I would say that this is more of issue of stomach tolerance than endurance. I do not run or do any other form of exercise first thing in the morning before the :coffee: . But my husband and son frequently run while I am still snoozing. They do not eat anything beforehand. They have a few sips of water. Otherwise, you could get cramps or worse. I think once you adjust to regimen you're fine. Of course, you could run later in the day, which is much more civilized.

It is interesting that you bring up the "fad" phenomenon. GoodSmith started a thread on this topic some time ago. In in, he opines that "technique" is the subject of "fads" (everyone copies the latest greatest fast person), but that truly fast swimming is based on talent, genetics, aerobic capacity, workout intensity, etc. forums.usms.org/showthread.php When a certain technique is employed by the vast majority of world-class swimmers; is that a fad?

Well, Dave, as you might have noticed if you actually read (rather than just reacted to) my post, I wasn't claiming anything was a "fad." I was just referencing GoodSmith's thread and his opinion. Nothing more. So you might answer your own question and educate us all. QUOTE] read your post, read smith's post, thank you very much. i think much of what you describe re *** stroke is evolution not fad. wheras some strokes evolve with rule changes, others evolve with technical advances. i guess to me the word fad implies that the benefits of something will be abandoned after a short period. i don't think that applies to certain examples cited.:2cents: