Does Pool Depth have an effect on surface turbulence?

I watch plenty of good swimmers swim -- and they know nothing about TI to my knowledge -- and they simply do a quick turn of their head to breathe as they swim higher in the water. It doesn't look awkward and it doesn't affect their stroke. On backstroke, I notice people actually do crane their necks a bit to breathe. I've also developed an irrational fear of kickboards which has made me ignore a lot of the non-TI drills that other swimmers have been suggesting -- including my girlfriend who is a former competitive swimmer and coach. I think I'll start listening to her more =) That's how I breath in freestyle. Just a quick turn of the head to the side. Otherwise, I try to look straight down at the bottom of the pool. Keep it simple. Craning your head on backstroke? Hmmm... You should keep your head as still as possible. I have an irrational fear of kickboards too, but that's because they hurt already impaired shoulders. But what drills are you doing with kickboards? The only one I do with a kickboard is the one where I put it between my legs and reinforce body roll by whacking it against the water from side to side. I agree with Muppet, try a pullbuoy for awhile or some fins. Just don't get addicted. If George comes back, he could give you some good tips. I think Terry's coming back soon too, so maybe he could explain his drills better.

Craning your head on backstroke? Hmmm... You should keep your head as still as possible. pirate girl is right... if your head position is correct, you shouldn't need to move your head to breathe. but that being said, i know how hard it can be to breathe on backstroke when people around you are churning up the water. you've just got to get used to waves occasionally coming across your face... but at least you don't have to worry about swimming the 100 back next to a guy who was in the process of setting a new world record... it's not everyone who gets the "priviledge" of swimming in the wake of someone like that! :laugh2: sheesh...

I will just add that I personally find that in the water doing things too slowly sometimes makes them difficult. I don't know what speed you are swimming at but I find that when doing new drills sometimes I end up going too slow to do things correctly. QUOTE] I find that if the purpose of a drill is to find balance, slower is better. I think once you add speed (think of riding a bicycle) it is easier to feel balanced, but if you can achieve that same feeling without the momentum....better.

Alphatree, I was a backstroker so I will pass along to you how I swam this stroke. I never was low or flat to the water. The waterline hit my head at about the crown area which means I was both looking up and looking somewhat down toward my knees at the same time. And kicking with backstroke is crucial. My head never moved from side-to-side. I accomplished a non-moving head by putting coins on my forehead and swam with them. If they fell off, I had to much upper body or head movement. You can also do this with goggles on your head, but they are larger and won't fall off as easily, so they are not a true test. I used nickels, dimes, quarters. And when I felt like I really had no movement, I would pile a lot of them on my forehead and swim a 25. When all coins stayed put, I had this portion of the stroke "memorized" in my brain and body (I could feel it). As for breathing in backstroke, the only water I ever experienced was water I generated as my arm strokes came above my head; not from other people, and maybe this is because I was not low in the water like people swim today. During the last Olympics, I didn't see many backstrokers flat in the water; they were slightly elevated. It's also easy to bounce when swimming backstroke and this is due to the effort one is trying to produce. But bouncing is off-limits, too. Ideally, smooth, long and fast strokes with hip rotation and a quiet head will suit a person very well. As to freestyle, again my style is different than many here. I have a very long, smooth stroke, but my head is not looking directly down; my head looks slightly forward underwater; about a yard or two. And I use a 2-beat kick and I just don't sink; that kick is enough for me. And because I am "planed" out on the water, and not in the water, I don't have to turn my face far to breathe. When I breathe, I breathe low and I mean by this the waterline almost separates my mouth; i.e, it looks like my mouth is half-in and half-out of the water when I breathe. I don't know level-wise where you are in your swimming, but I certainly do not think using a pull buoy and training yourself to bilateral breathe is a bad thing. I would actually encourage it so you can better feel what it should feel like and then when you remove the buoy, you can feel where the weakness is. Besides, pull buoys are great for incorporating breathing sets; one of my favorites is breathe 7,5,3,1 and repeat. But like anything else, the entire body must learn how to swim and serve you. I also kick with and without a board, and I do a lot of side kicking alternating sides every 10 kicks or so. But maybe in the beginning of your getting more acquainted to breathing, a pull buoy may be useful. As you swim more, you will find that "right place" for you because each of us swims so alike, yet differently at the same time. Cheers!!! Donna

And I use a 2-beat kick and I just don't sink; that kick is enough for me... As you swim more, you will find that "right place" for you because each of us swims so alike, yet differently at the same time. A 2 beat kick is just fine for me too, so we're "alike." But I don't think my backstroke would look as good as yours. And I definitely look "different" than people who are butterfrogging. No need for that in the OW, agreed?

Batman, You're right; my backstroke is prettier but that may be about where we have to leave it. I don't do speed anymore with it, just swim it. But I commend you for not butterfrogging, sorry folks, I really like to see true butterfly. But butterfrogging could be useful in OW, but I won't be a guinea pig and have all those dolphins laughing at me!!! It's one thing to have my husband snicker at me, but I draw the line at dolphins!!! Donna

I noticed that I really struggle breathing on backstroke in shallow pools (e.g. 5ft deep) because when there are a bunch of other swimmers, there's TONS of surface turbulance and I have trouble keeping my face above the water. Should I just tuck my chin more (possibly risking my legs sinking?) or maybe try a deeper pool? Does anyone else have this problem? Sometimes lifeguards are just lasy and lousy. They don't tighten the ropes enough. I always bring a ratchet with me along with my board and pull buoy ;)

Alphatree, You are not alone in your observations here on TI. Many are advocates, many are not, but low in the water, well, I see too many other problems not addressed. One of my largest issues is if a swimmer is very low in the water, then how do they swim without drag (water over the shoulders, slightly underwater), and how do they rotate, not roll? How far do they have to turn their bodies to breathe? I could expand on this, but I won't for now, even though I am hunting for ways to endorse TI swimming. The search goes on. Donna water over the shoulders?...only one at a time, a high elbow recovery with good rotation (but not stacked shoulders) will produce a position that has one shoulder high of the water at all times except for the brief moment of transition. if ones head is high, either the legs are down or they are actively engaged just to stay up. (better to have them available to provide for propulsion rather than counter balance) as far as endorsement...i think that the USMS and TI mission statements are pretty similar.

To clarify, I meant craning my neck permanently -- not moving it -- while swimming backstroke. This, as opposed to putting my head in an aligned-with-spine streamline position which causes me to submerge if there are waves.

The breathing in freestyle was probably the most difficult part of the stroke for me to learn when I started swimming. Timing is key. After you have finished your pull under water, as your elbow is lifting out of the water, turn your head to the side, breathing under your elbow, and then placing your face back in the water as your hand reenters the water. You want to make sure you aren't actually lifting your head to breathe, for as soon as you pull your head up, your hips will drop, throwing your whole rhythm off. If your hips are dropping now, you need to kick more. The low in the water stuff is good for some, but not everyone. It requires a lot of balance, which you might not have just quite yet. Take Muppet's advice.