Freestyle Stroke Question

I think it was in Swimming Fastest that the author cited a study that showed that the "kinetic chain" may be a viable "feel" but that it isn't feasible in terms of physics. Not sure if science can really rule in or out the potential contribution of body rotation. Oops, I forgot to say that the study I am thinking of dealt with the "kinetic chain" as it relates to butterfly/undulation/dolphin kick. Sometimes people talk about starting the undulation in your chest and "whipping" a wave down through your body to your feet, if I recall correctly the study showed that the physics of this in an aquatic medium don't work. Which is not to say that you shouldn't move in a way that looks like a wave moving down your body, just that the energy won't be transmitted down your body in the way that it is when you whip a wet towel or throw a baseball for example. In this case the wave moving down the body is a concise way of describing the desired movement and feel, no problem there, it is the explanation of "why" that I believe is off the mark. Another problem I see with that model is it doesn't fit with a two-kick style fly. I know that rotation works for me, I'm just not ready to buy the statement that the "power is coming from the hips" as a literal statement, I suspect the power is coming from the lats. Perhaps when my stroke improves I'll get the feel of power coming from my hips.

I am starting to think that I should take bits and pieces from everbodies posts and write my own book about swimming called "Take It Or Leave It".

When you get it right, you might swim a time that will surprise -- maybe even shock -- you, and wonder how you managed to do it without hurting. One thing I enjoy about this forum is that I can take bits and pieces of advice to improve my swimming, or to wreck it completely. But, Terry, sometimes your posts come across as a bit preachy and holier than thou. It's quite obvious you have a passion and certainly some expertise in swimming. However, I also think it is entirely possible to swim quite fast, be in as much or little pain as possible, and have no interest in TI, and that's completely fine. Personally, some pain "hurts so good."

Oops, I forgot to say that the study I am thinking of dealt with the "kinetic chain" as it relates to butterfly/undulation/dolphin kick. Sometimes people talk about starting the undulation in your chest and "whipping" a wave down through your body to your feet, if I recall correctly the study showed that the physics of this in an aquatic medium don't work. Now wait a second (not aggressive, I'm curently smiling). Now don't tell me power comes solely from the ankles. It at least come from the knee extention, but what about the hip movement. When we say butterfly kicking requires good abs, does some of this power ultimately getting transmitted to the feet indirectly as well? Where's the limit and who can tell? I know that rotation works for me, I'm just not ready to buy the statement that the "power is coming from the hips" Me neither I'm like you on that. Probably a sound advice from a pedagogical perspective, but I can't feel it that much. And you know, I don't buy this counter argument according to which being in a liquid environment prevent for such a transfert. I just think that being "anchored" by the hands, it makes more sense (at least to me) to focus more on shoulder rotation rather than hips. I donno how the proponents of hip rotation explain this phenomenon. But as a shoulder proponent my take is very simple. I use upward body rotation to help bringing the arm backward. On the upsweep, the shoulder's position goes from deep to far back. Just there I think we benefit from rotation. don't you think? I suspect the power is coming from the lats. Me too. Power comes from there, and fatigue comes from everywhere.

If these terms are all intended as "metaphors," I have no problem. Let me elaborate: 1. "Effortless." Of course that is the feeling we strive for. But I believe that training for competition is anything but. 2. "Weight shift." Of course there will be weight shifts if you are rotating properly. But this is not the primary source of propulsion in freestyle. And as I have posted before, I do not believe you can use the analogy of a baseball pitcher, who has the benefit of a solid surface to push against. 3. "Hand anchoring." Of course your hand isn't really stationary; this is just a feeling, right? Unless of course you truly beliieve that you are moving forward because of weight shifts. Who here believes that?

1. "Effortless." Of course that is the feeling we strive for. But I believe that training for competition is anything but. Effortless is a quest more than a metaphor I believe. When looking at elite swimmer performing their warm ups off 1:20/100m, question is : If I could have their technique, what would the RPE (rate of perceived effort) be for me at the same speed? But this is not the primary source of propulsion in freestyle. I donno. Hard to tell. You must be right I donno. 3. "Hand anchoring." Of course your hand isn't really stationary; this is just a feeling, right? Unless of course you truly beliieve that you are moving forward because of weight shifts. Who here believes that? Hand anchoring probably refers to one's ability to have a solid feeling under tha palm of the hands, and to develop the feeling that the body is moving forward rather than the hand going backward.

I think I will have my first coffee of the day 6:30 am here a little late rising. I watched a short film last night Mao Swims in the Yangtze River he was an amazing very bad swimmer at 73. I did notice he was doing a head up dog paddle, He was weght shifting to take advantage of the river current. It looked as if he were anchored to the bottom for quite a while but really started to move once he took advantage of the Flow (of the river).

Have you considered the possibility you might benefit if you were to devote a bit more energy to plain curiosity and a bit less to being disputatious? This is a discussion forum. If you don't want your ideas to be challenged, you shouldn't post here. Anyway, I was responding to Paul's post. I guess you didn't find his post disputatious since he agreed with you. And if I lacked curiosity, I would not have bought one of your books, read it cover to cover, and tried the drills.

I read once that the hand during the catch phase should move into dead water as pressure was being applied, should I belive this or not??? I read this 50 years ago it must not be good we better through it out or maybe not..

This is Mao swimming.