What do you think of total immersion?

Originally posted by totalswimm To rhink that swimmers should take their cues only from what elite swimmers do would be just as unreasonable. And possibly unhealthy. I think there are more elite swimmers with shoulder injuries than without. Lots of yardage and lots of strokes are something that no amount of physical therapy can overcome.

Originally posted by totalswimm And not just elite swimmers either. At most any high yardage club or college team, you'll see more than a few people icing shoulders after practice. When I mention this to PT's they say if you're doing anything that requires regular ice therapy, you should STOP doing it. Yet it's become accepted in the swimming culture as "the price you need to pay" to achieve. In any case, my main swimming goal is to be strong, supple and graceful at age 85. I don't think Grant Hackett is thinking along those lines at the moment. You're absolutely correct about that. Long term is the name of the game in my book also.

Originally posted by scyfreestyler And possibly unhealthy. I think there are more elite swimmers with shoulder injuries than without. Lots of yardage and lots of strokes are something that no amount of physical therapy can overcome. There are whole swimming clubs that have high rates of shoulder injuries, the club that I have seen do a pretzel twist and stretch regime of exercises before they swim. Let's not just blame over distance swimming.

Last year at the Santa Clara Swim Club Invitational I was amazed when I saw Phelps performing his stretch on the blocks. He slams his arms across each other, slapping himself on the back. I can't imagine that this is beneficial to shoulder health. Elite swimmers are fast but their methods are not always the best route for longetivity.

Are SR and SL mutually exclusive? In other words, if your drills/method are designed to emphasize one, are you automatically hindering the other? Without anything but personal evidense I am certain that the most power in the pull comes when you slightly rotate your core in conjuction with your pull - swimming flat without body rotation prohibits this. Whoever transfer the most power from their core into their stroke swims the fastest.

Wow! Regarding Terry & Lefty's last post: I was always told by every single coach to finish the stroke completely and push back at the end of the pull. In fact, it is something I concentrate on. So, what do I do to get this habit out of my brain? Also, I agree with Lefty - I'm not clear on how to emphasize both SR and SL. If I understood Terry's post - SR = stroke rate (the faster turnover the better) and SL = stroke length (the fewer the better).

Terry: I don't think you really answered gull's question. Meet swimming all-out is what he was referring to, I think. You can practice all day long doing fast sets but do you teach all out sprinting for race day? Sure you may be able to swim an entire workout faster than everyone but you don't swim an entire workout during a single event. I found in the second half of last year I was putting in more yardage and improving mechanics and swimming sets faster. However, I was not pushing myself to truly swim fast in prep for meets so when I got to my most recent meet I was surprised at the extra effort it took to sprint. Sure I could knock out a bunch of 100s 10 seconds quicker than last year but that was of little consolation during the 200. Swiming a 100 set on 1:05 versus 1:15 is improvement but it has no bearing on swimming that 100 in a race at :50 versus :55. Do you not train for that high end speed? There may be a way to make a set or a workout easier by your methods. But, where does your philosophy account for race day?

Originally posted by totalswimm No one I coach ever swims "all out." Nor do I. It's a little frustrating conversing with you sometimes cause you tend to parse words a lot and miss our points, but I'll be more concise when I write. By all-out I mean in a race, not a long set where I'm trying to be more comfortable. I still don't understand how your philosophy of swimming more comfortably in a workout is going to help me at my top speed in a meet? I personally don't want to get out of my showdown with gull80 feeling comfortable. I want to feel challenged and like there is nothing more I could have given. Comfort isn't a big concern. Maybe I just don't get the zen thing you preach. Seems like you have to buy into the philosophy to get much out of TI, I'm learning.

Originally posted by geochuck Buy his dvd I am sure he explains it well there. Lefty I don't think he should give you free lessons. George this is a message board and my question is well in line. We post on here for the exchange of ideas. When people ask me to critique their strokes I can better answer them if I understand the principles behind "spearing." I want my hands pointing to the bottom of the pool as soon as possible (in the stroke) because the more perpendicular your hand is to the bottom of the pool the more water you pull. It would seem to me that "spearing" is counter-productive. But my mind is open and I want to learn.

Originally posted by totalswimm I think it's beneficial to more precisely define what one means by "fast." I would define fast as En3 or race pace. Obviously this will depend on the individual's anaerobic threshold as well as the race he or she is training for. One of the reasons coaches like Mike Bottom use sprint assisted training is to give swimmers a feel for what it is like to move through the water at a very fast pace.