About lowering stroke count.

fireguard, a longer stroke is a great thing it's proof of a swimmers efficiency how many strokes a swimmer takes per length is based on body frame, body shape, skills and conditioning. Anyone can develop a longer stroke cycle / lower stroke count by: + improving your feel for the water with your hands (many swimmers hands slip and don't get as much out of each stroke + placing a slight pause on the front end of your stroke before you being your pull + accellerating each hand on each pull/push as far past your suit as possible with out breaking ideal body position (some swimmers' strokes are too short, they stop pressing too soon) the final press is the most important and powerful part of the stroke cycle. + by improving body and head position + by relaxing and improving flexibility + by improving your streamline / break out 1. more powerful push off 2. better streamline position 3. better body shape (lug less lard) and 4. gliding a little longer, some swimmers start swimming too soon For distance swimmers it's not a good idea to create a longer stroke by kicking harder I tend to take 10 - 12 strokes per 25 when I'm swimming easy to aerobic 13 - 15 when I sprint and I can get it down to 5 - 7 if I concentrate on taking as few strokes as possbile Where do your stroke counts fall? ande Originally posted by fireguard I am a novice swimmer. It usually takes 19 strokes and 22-23 seconds for me to finish 25 yards and I can hold this pace beyond 500 yards. Since people always say longer stroke lenth always means better, I try to improve my stroke length. The problem is when I try to finish 25 yards with 17 or lower strokes, I become exhausted very easily, also the speed is even a little bit slower. Now I want to improve my swim conditioning, what kind of stroke should I use? the exhausting, slower, but longer one, or my previous easy, faster but shoter one? This information might be useful. My hight is 173 cm, weight 134 lbs (Damn!). My kick is pretty weak and I can barely finish 50 yards. When I swim, I use 2 beat crossover kick.

Longer is not always better. More efficient will lead to longer but longer is not necessarily more efficient. It is quite possible that the changes you have made to achieve a longer stroke are not helpful. Some people for example will insert a glide phase during which they slow down, they then need to use a powerful pull to regain the lost speed. The more powerful pull can be exhausting, it is like riding your bike in too low a gear. Another example is to use a rigorous kick to get more distance per stroke, especially if your kick is not efficient you can easily exhaust yourself to travel the same distance at the same speed. On the other hand, if you concentrate on a better streamline and maintaining constant speed throughout your stroke you will swim more efficiently and your stoke length will increase while expending less energy.

Hi - I am new to this forum and this is my first post. I had a similar discussion on this topic on another swimming technique forum. I disagree with the statement that the fewer the strokes, the better. This should really depend on how long your race is. If you look at the Olympic level swimmers, for men's 50m race, they are generally around 38 strokes after a dive in (so that left them pretty much 40 meter or less to swim). For men's 100m race, they are around 42 in the second half after a push off. For men's 200m race, they go down to around 34-36 after a push off. If you divide these numbers by two, you get your stroke counts for 25 yards (25yards are slightly shorter than 25 meters, but you already know that). I think there should be a balance. You obviously don't want to be just swinging your arms like a windmill and not moving forward. At the same time, if you go too low on your stroke count, you are, for a short moment in your stroke cycle, lying on your side without any arm propelling force. All you are doing is to propell yourself forward by gliding and kicking. You will save some energy but it's not necessarily the fastest. You can try the Popov drill where you lay on your side with one arm out front and the other arm by your thigh and do nothing but kicking. Kick for five yards on one side, then do one pull and switch to other side. That way you will cross the pool in five strokes. But is that the fastest? Freestyle is not my favorite stroke but from my personal experience, the key thing is rotation. When you have great rotation, everything else falls into place naturally. You extend your arm to the front with your body almost on its side, and pull back immediately when you have reached full extension that way. You get the longest pull that way and you are not pausing to lose momentum.

If your "longer" stroke is both slower and more tiring, you shouldn't use it. While it's often true that better swimmers have longer strokes, they get that way by challenging themselves physically for years, gradually increasing their water strength. You don't need to think about stroke length to increase your stroke length.

If you want to see the explanation of and argument for stroke length, go to www.totalimmersion.net WARNING: certain individuals in this discussion space will label you a blasphemer and develope a nervous tick every time you post to these fora; however, their claims that Total Immersion will cause you to grow hair on the palm of your hand are greatly exaggerated.

I'm with ande, work the wall and your streamline. When you flip your turn, rotate onto your stomach and throw a glide in, then engage your legs and do your breakout. When streamlining, pinch your ear lobes back with your biceps. Depending on your height, you should be past the backstroke flags when you begin the breakout. I'm sure the lowering your stroke count debate will never cease, yet what may be of most important is having "fast hands". And that is moving your hands swiftly from the catch, under your body, past your suit.

-Good turn with a powerful push-off -Good streamline to get you past the flags (A body length beyond should be a reasonable goal) -Good catch, high elbow, long powerful strokes -Good body rotation to ease recovery and extend your reach Swiminton, the drill you mention as being a Popov drill is one that is used by TI as well.

Originally posted by 330man Swiminton, the drill you mention as being a Popov drill is one that is used by TI as well. I think it's an excellent drill to practice your rotation and breathing, but I would never swim free with that much pausing between my arm strokes.

Thank you guys for your help. I think my body position is pretty fine. I went to a coach several weeks ago and she said that. I guess I need better conditioning and kick. Also I found a very interesting thing yesterday. I used to breath to my right side and always feel not very comfortable. So yesterday I tried to breath to my left side,. It was awkward at the beginning, but once I got used to it, it was pretty smooth. I think ithis is very strange. Maybe my choosing to breath to my right side was wrong. This must be related to my stroke timing. When my left hand enters the water, my right hand is still in front of my shoulder. While when my right hand enters, my left hand is almost between my chest and waist. I always tried to change this strange timing, I couldn't. Somehow the kicking timing is also very asymmetric. Anyone has similar experience?

I know many people do and like breathing on two sides, but I only breathe on my right side simply because it's faster. I take my breathe when my left hand reaches to the farthest point (which means my body reaches the maximum rotation), so at that point it requires less neck turning. Not sure where my right hand would be at that point, but I think it should be pretty close to coming out of water. When I get tired and my rotation is not as good, breathing becomes more of a hassle.