Criticism of TI Principles

Originally posted by MetroSwim ... The Bobby Patten "Fish Don’t Swim On Their Side" article itself is a little dated, particularly "World Class swimmers do not leave their arm extended for a long period of Time". If you compare stroke technique from 2000 to 2004, you will see a significant increase in front-quadrant swimming across the board. in effect, they ARE leaving their arms out there longer. ... Rich __________ Rich Barkan MetroTri.com I compare stroke technique from 2000 to 2004 and find a majority of Olympians including Alex. Popov (Rus.), Pieter van den Hoogenband (Ned.), and most Australians like Michael Klim and Geoff Huegill using not the front quadrant but the rotary style. In 2002, 1996 Olympian Sheila Taormina (U.S.) writes this, to scrap the pause advocated in T.I.'s front-quadrant and get more rotary and faster turnover: www.slowtwitch.com/.../propulsion.html

Originally posted by Jazz Hands I would prefer to ditch the stupid equation altogether. It's pointless to focus on stroke rate and stroke length, because those variables are secondary to things that swimmers can actually control. Huub Toussaint's research indicates that swimming ability is mostly determined by propelling efficiency. Basically, maximize propulsive force for a given level of exertion. Force is something that swimmers can feel on their arms and hands. It's something that they can increase with focused swimming and proper resistance training and drills. Yes, that includes TI drills. If Toussaint's research is to be believed, the most important part of TI is the lesson about "anchoring your hand in the water." Stroke rate and stroke length are nothing but distractions. I read earlier in another thread your same position on this. Toussaint speaks about the efficacy of the strength of the pull. T.I.'s anchoring the hand in the water is physics nonsense, it's a flowery metaphor, every boat's anchor catches the ground, a swimmer's hand doesn't. Coach Mike Bottom -of the Gary Hall Jr. (U.S.) , Duje Draganja's (Cro.), Anthony Ervin's (U.S.) fame- credits the gold won in 200 back by Gordan Kozulj (Cro.) at the 2000 European Championships, to working on a much faster Stroke Rate. He writes about his work on Stroke Rate in 'The Coach Swimming Bible' by *** Hannula. There are numerous examples of the importance of a high Stroke Rate, one mentioned by Cecil Colwin in 'Swimming Dynamics' as the reason for an Olympic gold, another when yesterday I spoke with a sprinter training in the same Masters program as me who is 5'9" and went 20.42 in the 50 yards free when swimming for the Syracuse University five years ago. Toussaint's force of the pull is important, but so is the Stroke Rate.

The Japanese used front quadrant swimming in 1956 at the 1956 Olympics it is nothing new.

Of course the hand isn't actually anchored. But when a pull is efficient, it might feel that way. I personally don't get that metaphor for my swimming. I'm a sprinter, and every time I sprint I'm thinking "max force." That's a new focus for me and it has been working very well. I just started my season this week after about a month off with a shoulder injury and I'm already hitting my best ever practice times in the 50 and 100 free. So I am enamored with Huub's research, but I still have a skeptical eye for it. I see some flaws in his experiments, even the ones that are key to the understanding on which I base my training. As for the real world cases of top swimmers improving by focusing on stroke rate, I don't understand how a coach comes to the decision that a swimmer's stroke rate is too low. Could that be said of such low tempo superstars as Ian Thorpe and Larsen Jensen? If a swimmer doesn't have a visible hitch in their stroke, how can a coach know that they are using the wrong stroke rate?

Originally posted by Jazz Hands ... As for the real world cases of top swimmers improving by focusing on stroke rate, I don't understand how a coach comes to the decision that a swimmer's stroke rate is too low. Could that be said of such low tempo superstars as Ian Thorpe and Larsen Jensen? If a swimmer doesn't have a visible hitch in their stroke, how can a coach know that they are using the wrong stroke rate? I don't have the book handy now. From my recollection Bottom counted the number of strokes taken by Kozulj in a 50 meter. He found X. He thought Y, greater than X, is better. Y came to him from the stats of the eight finalists in a major meet that he names. To get to Y, he made Kozulj and Gary Hall Jr. to swim and pull against the cord that was going to a weights machine. He asked them to pull weights, quicker and quicker over many months. This, he says, is cardiovascular and muscular training. That T.I. despises. Bottom describes how Gary Hall Jr. ended pulling down the entire machine, and how Kozulj got to Y strokes per 50, and gold in the 200 back. Thorpe worked hardest to change his slow stroke to a higher Stroke Rate for his 48.5x and a bronze medal in the 100 meter free at the 2004 Athens Olympics.

Below are excerpts from the book, showing coach Mike Bottom (U.S.) work on aerobic conditioning. It's contrary to T.I., but T.I. hasn't produced one single Olympian. The book 'The Swim Coaching Bible' by Hannula and Thornton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- has this in page 211: ----------------------------- "...To build aerobic fitness we do a circuit every Tuesday afternoon that lasts from 40 to 60 minutes. In one circuit Bart Kizierowski, 1999 NCAA champion in the 100 meter freestyle does the following: .) Runs a quarter mile in less than 1 minute; .) Does 10 pull-ups; .) Runs 5 times up and down a basketball court dumping the basketball at each end; .) Does 24 plyometric jumps on a 3-foot platform; .) Runs and dives into a 25 meter sprint kick; .) Does 275 meters of backstroke pulling on the lane line; .) Grabs a kickboard and does 31 second 50 meter kick; .) Swims 250 meters. Then he is back to the ring to begin another round. During the 45 minutes it takes to do four rounds of the circuit, Bart's pulse falls between 150 and 185 beats per minute..." (Note: Bart Kizierowski, a 6'5" from Poland, finished 6th. worldwide in 2000 -an Olympic year- in 50m freestyle sprint, finished 12th. worldwide in 2004 -another Olympic year- in 50m freestyle sprint, and 3rd. at the 2005 Montreal World Championships in 50m freestyle sprint) has this in page 212: -------------------------------- "...Gary began to trust me as the season progressed. At one point I asked him if he felt we were doing enough aerobic yardage. He laughed and said, "We start with one and a half hour of weights, do 30 minutes of stretching and core body work, then we get in and swim about 30 to 40 minutes of technique work, and finish up with about 15 minutes of speed work. By the time of warm down my heart rate has been over 120 for about 3 hours. That is just the morning workout! (i.e.: there are two workouts per day) Yes I think we are doing enough aerobic yardage." Gary ended that 1995 season with five Pan Pacific gold medals..." and this in page 216: ------------------------------- "...From 1999 to 2000 Gary Hall Jr. dramatically increased his muscle mass...My fears subsided when, while swimming with fins and paddles against the maximum weight of the power rack, he not only beat all the other Olympic sprinters in the water by over a second, but almost pulled the machine as well..." (Note: Gary Hall Jr., a 6'5" from USA, won silver in the 50m and 100m freestyle at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, won the gold medal in the 50m freestyle sprint and the bronze medal in the 100m freestyle at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and won again the gold medal in the 50m freestyle at the 2004 Athens Olympics)

Mattson Wrote: "How do you figure? For example, Richard Quick contributed a fair amount to TI. He was a coach for several Olympics, a strong program at Stanford, and worked with many Olympians. I don't see how you can make a bold-faced statement like that, and expect to back it up." I started working with Terry Laughlin and Total Immersion in 1994, worked with the program until 2001. Richard Quick did not contribute to TI, he worked extensively with Bill Boomer, who Coach Laughlin credits with starting him off on the "vessel shaping" track. What was that about bold faced statements? I also attended two Stanford swim camps with both Boomer and Quick in attendance, by that time I was a Camp Director, and Senior Instructor for TI. The Stanford camps were set up and run quite differently from the TI workshops of that time. Granted some of the material was similar, as were some drills. There was also a good amount of difference in the teaching techniques and lecture materials See Ya Brian

Originally posted by geochuck The windmill style went out with a swimmer we called Windmill Willie in 1948. Didn't Janet Evans use her "windmill" style stroke to win all her gold in '88?

Not really it was more a strait arm crawl, it was not a true windmill stroke. I just checked the video again her right arm hit the water as her left arm was half way thru the catch phase. Which is almost the catchup stroke.

Originally posted by geochuck It is a good sales package. But you do not win races by just lowering your stroke count. I think that's it in a nutshell. I guess it just depends on what you want. If you're a novice swimmer who wants to have a decent stroke for lap swimming, or a triathlete who needs to be able to stay with the pack for the swim portion of a triathlon, I suppose it's worth a try (no pun intended). To me, the book reads too much like one of those upbeat self help books. Damn, I must be getting old. Now I'm starting to agree with George.