Nationals Relays

Jim, you have it ALL wrong. See...none of us really like John.... .which shouldn't be a hard thing to understand given his posts hear... basically he's been kicked off each of those teams (hussy no....outcast yes, probably much like geek). To the point of switching teams next year JS we're back to the whole....it's Worlds so we shouldn't have to "switch" teams to represent our country! Someone please explain that to FINA! Now as for hussy...that would be Mr. Gill!

John/Paul or Paul/John: Let's see if I've got this right. Paul agrees with me on this viewpoint. John agrees with me on this viewpoint. But John and Paul don't agree with each other on the viewpoint. Or at minimum, they're "throwing" things at each other. Hmmmm. What are we doing wrong here?

Personally, I don't think bending rules so someone would get a medal is a good idea, or a fair one. For one, it lowers the value of the medal. Heck, may as well just make it a souvenir and let people buy one if they couldn't get one in competition. Or, bending the rules so you could get a medal just might take the medal away from someone else who isn't complaining about playing by the rules. You know, it takes time and effort to grow a team, takes enthusiasam on the part of the coach and the teammates to get people interested in their team, in swim meets and into coming to swim at nationals. Getting a medal in a relay is a reflection of all of those efforts. It's not a mere random instance that certain clubs or teams have presentation in numbers, and others don't. Perhaps instead of asking to change the rules of competition or accusing more succesful teams of recruiting and elitism or what not, one ought to be asking how do I help grow my team and promote masters swimming im my area, so I have better representation next year.

Jim, I was (and to some degree still am) a team hussy. I started back swimming masters 5 years ago after a long break and didn't have a team to workout with due to conflicting work schedules and pool times. While living in Atlanta I jumped from Dallas Aquatic Masters at one nationals to Team TYR at another nationals and Rocky Mtn masters at the next nationals. Big deal.... who cares...... seriously...... I did it to swim my old friends.... Bobby Patten at DAMM, Chris Cavanaugh and Geoff Gaberino at Team TYR and evil Paul with Rocky Mtn. masters. I work out by myself most of the time still today. If there is a chance to swim with Rich Saeger, Paul and Rowdy on another relay team for Worlds next year ...... I'd probably switch teams again and come back to Rocky Mtn. the next season. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Otherwise, I would be swimming unattached as I don't workout with any teams. John Smith

Jim, You are correct. Finding a relay and group of old friends to swim with on a relay gives purpose to working out for me. I probably wouldn't swim otherwise. I look forward to seeing old faces and drinking beers with them at Masters Nationals each year. But I kind of like the term "Hussy".... it fits me well.... :-) It's better than what Paul calls me. John Smith

Karen......I don't like to deal in any "absolutes" (other than John's lack of willingness to chase down the 50 free LCM WR!) and I never ""assumed" anything but rather asked for consideration of a different point and clarification. My postion was Jim's post did not touch on the other and what I beleive to be far more popular reason that people join teams outside their regions. If you don't agree with something thats fine, but I'd prefer to know more details as to why and if its based on facts? If that vast majority of people "jumping ship" are actually doing so to be with friends vs. to break records and win championships would you still be against it? If it actually increases participation and gets people back into swmming (as Johns 11-12 year old teamates did) would you be against it?

I think if you swim a race, relay or individual, it should count, for whatever records, medals, points, etc. Paul, you assume that Jim (and me for that matter) agree that EVERYONE recruits these people for old home week, get them involved, etc. That is clearly NOT the case a lot of the time. I voted no awhile ago- my reasons go back to the whole superteam vs. club idea (small size team or otherwise). On the one hand I think, "Too bad they don't have enough for a relay, they shouldn't be able to swim. They at least have individual events," and on the other hand I wonder, "How would this meet be different (the outcome) if THAT relay wasn't put together?" I'm coming to the conclusion that, really, in the big scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. You don't see people actively protesting, withdrawing from meets... while it's fun to talk about, I don't think it's a big deal in the end. Someone mentioned USMS being inclusive, that's an important point. The more people that swim the better, it's about fun and competition and until the rules are to everyone's liking... that's not likely to happen. Sorry if I'm rambling I'm going to bed- very sle :p

.it's Worlds so we shouldn't have to "switch" teams to represent our country! Someone please explain that to FINA! If you are going to World Masters Championships, you swim for a team (and however your federation defines team - for some countries I would imagine there is just one team; kind of like swimming in Arizona). You cannot swim unattached. Now for excellent swimmers like the Smith Bros to swim in the World Championships or Olympics, you swim for your federation, so you are no longer swimming for your team. In either case you dont have to change teams. I should also point out that FINA Rules are decided by the FINA Congress. Every country could send two representatives to the Congress and vote on the changes. Most of the work for changing the rules are made by the different technical commttees. Each committee has about 12 members; each member is from a different country. They propose the rule changes, although each federation could submit a rules change. michael

This thread started out with the assumption that small teams couldn't field relays and that the swimmers felt left out. As the thread progressed, places, points, and medals became the focus. I belong to what I'd call a small team (not defined here) and we field a relay or 2 at Nationals. We do it for pride and not for points or medals. We're small but we're proud to represent our team in the total scheme of things. If the small team is represented by fewer than 4 swimmers, that is one way to define a small team but perhaps pooling swimmers and lengthening the meet by several heats is not in the best interests of everyone. Some people would rather have some time to rest or enjoy a new area and don't mind not being on a relay taking place at 5 or 6 or 7pm. A relay represents a "team", as someone else has noted, and not just as another opportunity to swim a 50. One thing that does bother me though, is that swimmers able to compete on relays do have an additional opportunity to swim a better 50 or set a record than someone who does not have that option. Some people actually don't swim the event because they can get a time by leading off on a relay. My two cents. Nancy

Michael, Few of us are familar with the inner workings of FINA so can you explain to me why they would not to compete as "countries" vs. "clubs"? Seems like a slam dunk to me, but then again I did work for a Fench company for 4 years so nothing should surprise me! By the way......this has nothing at all to do with "excellant" swimmers or any hint of the "E" (elitism) word. We would like to see anyone from the US swimming in an international meet be ble to swim for their country.