Butterfly, Discussion on Overall Technique

Ande, Much thanks for coming into this thread per my request which was for being frank and brutal. You were frank but not brutal enough! Some good stuff there - I need to be more aware of where my head is (and it wasn't bad, maybe angled too low if that's possible) and flatten my undulation some more after having beefed it up in order to develop the right motion. I especially can use these too: focus on moving your arms fast, watch the finest flyers and copy them (confirmation I've been doing the right thing - although Matt does have a contrary point), relax, and stay smooth when fatigue sets in (I worked hard Friday on this one). You're welcome to come back to discuss more fly! I think I had a bit of a misunderstanding about what people mean by gliding. More on gliding later. Kyra, Thank you so much for your compliment! Getting hips up: I had made a lot of changes and I found my hips were staying up like a pro. I agree that it comes (naturally) with proper undulation. Even more specifically (although I could be wrong), I mostly attributed it to using my legs correctly: doing the up and down nicely - and in particular: bringing the legs up high enough. some_girl, I tried the side-breathing for two 50's. For my very first (right side) side-breath, my left arm almost didn't come up at all. I think you warned about something like this. But I continued ok and it didn't happen again. At a couple of points I took at least three breaths in row to try to get into the flow of it. I also switched back, without planning to, to a single regular front breath, once each lap. I think my body wanted its regular breath because it wasn't sure it was getting enough air. However, side-breathing seems like it would work just fine if I worked on it. I really don't have any incentive to switch except to find out if side-breathing is better and that would take a fair amount of practice. By the end of the two 50's, I started losing my form due to the side-breathing. Side-breathing seems like it has potential for a drill to work on exhalation. I was more conscious of my exhalation when, midstroke, I switched back and forth to straight and side-breathing. After my previous swim, I had said 50 meters was in reach. And now on Friday, I had several real good 50's and did well over 1000 meters total fly. I have a bunch of new thoughts to share. Perhaps I won't be saying anything more here after this. I'll be acting like the expert flyers that seem so quiet. Either many forgot how they learned, they don't know what they're doing (which is hard to believe), or they care about "something" else. The frame/pic#3 of Phelps with his head well below his hands is something I have abandoned, at least for now. I think that is much too low for learning and my natural depth is close enough to that of many top flyers, so I suspect I'm fine. The deep position hinders me in getting my hands back fast and it probably yields too much undulation. All other aspects of the Phelps frames are exactly right. I think there is one small problem in just saying "deemphasize your kick." It seems to me to be critically important to be raising your legs and bending them as Phelps is shown doing. Ande also says that if you kick too big with the wrong timing it makes things worse. Granted this is true, but once my timing gets off, I haven't yet figured out how to correct it without stopping anyway. For the first kick, I think the kicking force needs to be appropriate (or curtailed) to match or not exceed what's required for the undulation. For the second kick (the one where incorrect timing shows up the most), I'm wondering if a (less restrained) hard kick, at the right time, isn't good thing - a good surge can make recovery a breeze - yet a drag if mis-timed. Arms. I'm still trying to figure out what is happening to get my undulation out of kilter. Is it my arms fault they aren't keeping up? Am I changing my undulation? Are my legs to blame? One thing I am learning is how true it is that the undulation dictates what the legs and arms must do. And likewise how important it is to have just the right degree of undulation. Swimming fly slow. Ande says no. Well there goes my one-time most popular drill. I'm ok with that. I drop drills just like I drop cigarettes. But, the best fly I have swum (and not a drill) was at slower than usual speed. This has happened many times. I do a 25 slower than usual and it feels near perfect, effortless, awesome, and elegant. I turn around and do the next 25 and for whatever reason I go faster and not even close to being as good of form. I kind of think that if I didn't have to turn and the pool was 100 meters I would have gone on to do elegant fly for 100 meters. Gliding. Matt, you recommend gliding and Emmett Hines. I'm not sure the two go together. Yesterday, I came across this by Hines: "The flow of butterfly is really dependent upon maintaining the fluid rhythm of undulation, so a glide phase is really counterproductive." Yet I don't question that gliding is working for you and bud and hundreds of others. I'm not planning on trying to learn gliding for fly, but when I get "good" at fly, if I have trouble doing 100-200 meters, knowing that gliding is a viable technique could prove to be invaluable. Perhaps an advantage to gliding (once you master it) is that while gliding you can regularly re-sync your undulation (with your arms) if it gets off course? In this respect, it would be the opposite of what Hines says. Both, even though contradictions, could be true. The above quote by Hines is given in a discussion where a particular video and gliding style is being discussed: www.h2oustonswims.org/.../271.html video (WARNING: 45.2 MB download) is here: http://www.paperhat.org/ The video and discussion are highly interesting. The first 2/3+ of the video is SLOW warmup drills. The last 1/3- is slow gliding smooth fly and unusual undulation from tip to tail. I only want to make a note on the kicking: First kick is sharp with knees bent, second downkick is super weak and seemingly mistimed with almost no knee bend. However, he lifts his legs VERY high. Interesting, and not particularly recommended! Furthermore, for the short distances he travels, I may be ready to take him on!

Originally posted by gjy Swimming fly slow. Ande says no. Well there goes my one-time most popular drill. I'm ok with that. I drop drills just like I drop cigarettes. But, the best fly I have swum (and not a drill) was at slower than usual speed. This has happened many times. I do a 25 slower than usual and it feels near perfect, effortless, awesome, and elegant. I turn around and do the next 25 and for whatever reason I go faster and not even close to being as good of form. I kind of think that if I didn't have to turn and the pool was 100 meters I would have gone on to do elegant fly for 100 meters. Could it be that you are rushing your stroke? Speed is one thing, trying to rush the technique is another, it can throw everything out of wack...

Originally posted by ande [ + DON'T swim fly slow I have to agree with Ande on this one. If I try to swim fly slow, I end up with way too much up and down motion: my hips drop and I tend to dive too deep at the front end of the stroke. If I keep a good crisp pace, I can't go as far but I stay on top of the water, reach further, and go faster. As my coach says: "I look like a swimmer!" Since I'm still trying to develop my fly, I do workouts that allow me to maintain good technique. This means that the distance is relatively short, with quite a bit of rest; that way I can keep up a good pace without falling to pieces. Here's the main set for my favorite fly workout: 10 X 25 on :40 Kick easy 150 8 X 25 on :40 Kick easy 150 6 X 25 on :40 Kick easy 150 4 X 25 on :40 Kick easy 150 2 X 25 on :40 swim easy 200 1 X 50 ALL OUT! Aloha from Hawaii, -Becky "Friendships born on the field of athletic strife are the real gold of competition. Awards become corroded, friends gather no dust." –Jesse Owens

I have always been told to not swim fly slow. If I get too slow, i have terrible problems getting my shoul out of the water for recovery.

Originally posted by Alicat Could it be that you are rushing your stroke? Speed is one thing, trying to rush the technique is another, it can throw everything out of wack... (Now you tell) Me's Fly Tip # 1345134: Land Gracefully Do not swim faster than the speed at which you can land gracefully. It's always something. I've been working on everything else and my landing had become sloppy. I think how smooth one lands is indicative of how the stroke is going (or going to go). And the "landing" is one thing everyone sees that makes butterfly look so good or bad. I have a brilliant new theory, which could be entirely wrong, but it goes like this: the landing portion of the stroke is where you can correct your stroke when your timing is getting off. Concentrate on a smooth landing and perhaps slow just a little. Of course if your landing is suffering because you've run out of gas (no more recovery), worry more about getting to the end of the pool so you can do something else. I think the tail end of the stroke affects the front end of the stroke and vice-versa but the front end is where the focus should be. I just today realized why the likes of Crocker and Phelps seem to have their fingers spread apart on the outsweep (more so I think than for freestyle). I had been applying too much pressure too early with the hands. The outsweep (which is just a few inches anyway) is only for getting your hands in position to pull. Hand pressure before the pull seems counterproductive. I think you want minimal pressure with your hands until you get your elbows bent and then push with the palms. I also think the deeper one "dives" the more important this is.

I plan to update my "Learning to Butterfly" exposition and post it here (below) soon. I've learned more and hopefully my upcoming update of my treatise will satisfy more people. It's too bad my credentials aren't better although there should be some benefit in getting it from the perspective of a hardworking fly student who didn't always have the best teacher. In the meantime, I have some other, and hopefully final, comments on my fly swimming progress for the year. (So far I have been able to continue swimming but I doubt I will be able to use the pool much longer.) My last post above was sloppy in that I hadn't yet correctly identified all the reasons for my difficulties in "landing gracefully." Soon after that post I realized that I was not getting my shoulders high enough out of the water on my non-breathing stroke. I hadn't been taking my own advice that the breathing and non-breathing strokes should be otherwise the same. I am now starting to see the bad habits one can develop from swimming fly "slow". When you swim slow, you do not need to come up very high, particularly for the non-breathing stroke. I've been working hard at consistency in getting my shoulders up over the water at the same height whether I'm breathing or not. Two more things I discovered (all of this happened at virtually the same time) turned out to be especially important (which includes being helpful at getting the shoulders adequately high). First, I hadn't been using my upper arm muscle and shoulders enough to keep my elbows up during the pull/push. For some strange reason I had been directing the whole arm position from the hands and was finding it difficult to keep my elbows up. Weeks ago, before I really learned to undulate, I wasn't having trouble keeping the elbows up. But from the time I improved my undulation (originally, the trunk had been too straight), the trouble had persisted. I was trying to apply about the same pressure I do for freestyle but it wasn't working. In freestyle, of course, you rotate your body, so much less upper arm/shoulder pulling is used to keep the elbow up. I had assumed that I didn't want to consciously pull up with the upper arms. Bad mistake! As soon as I started applying just a little more pull from the upper arms and shoulders, viola, I kept the elbows up and the speed and effectiveness of the pull/push improved dramatically. Plus, the shoulders are better prepared and positioned for the exit part of the recovery. Damn, had I been struggling foolishly for several weeks. Hmmm..., if I had only done the one-armed drills ..., maybe I would have figured this out sooner. Lastly, I had been allowing my ankles to break the surface (which makes for a messy splash). I knew this was wrong but I let it go (longer than I had planned) because I guess I was kick happy. My timing and undulation had improved and I was keeping my legs going up and down so I thought it was no big deal that I was lifting them too high. I found out that it's a really big deal. But first, I am now certain that the way you keep your hips up is by undulating properly and therefore your lower legs are always either going up or down. If you do this as you are supposed to, your butt is always plenty high and any directive to "keep the hips up" in a general statement is actually nonsense. I quickly reigned in my leg lift so only the feet broke the surface (no more ankles out) and everything improved. Next I further reigned in my leg lift so the feet only infrequently broke the surface and I got still more improvement. (I currently think the feet should only be allowed to "escape" when sprinting.) At the same time I also worked on keeping the feet angled in and toe bend. Undulation got better; everything got better. What I didn't expect to see but did was that I was no longer making significant ripples across in the pool. My butterfly now leaves the water relatively calm. I have quickly progressed from having a bad butterfly (which was a huge achievement for me) to being real close to having a good butterfly. And all that earlier talk about (the 2nd) kick "timing" problems - it's no more. It feels so-ooo good to have found, and secured, the groove. Perhaps it won't be long before I can't relate to beginner problems.

You must learn to rhythmically undulate the entire torso properly for butterfly, and be able to control it, or you will not succeed. This is the first order of business. Do this and learning the rest is a matter of perseverance and time. Don't learn the butterfly undulation, and time don't matter. The hip joints delineate the central axis for undulation. Just the right amount of undulation provides optimal fluidity, minimal effort, less waves, and more energy being directed forwards. Undulation of the torso dictates the motion of the arms and legs, not the other way around. A significant sequence in the undulation involves applying downward pressure with the chest, followed by downward pressure with the stomach, followed by downward pressure with the thighs, and ending in downward pressure with the lower legs and feet. As arm recovery ends, the head and shoulders go down and the hips go up with a down kick. Kicking is an extension of the undulation. The two down-kicks must occur at (1) arms at full forward extension and at (2) ELBOWS EXITING WATER which provides continuation of momentum with head up for breathing. The butt is at its highest at the finish of down-kick-1 and down-kick-2 will naturally occur with the butt a few inches lower. Down-kick-1 finishes during the short outsweep of the hands or at the beginning of the very first arm stroke. The lower legs rise for most of the arm pull; and after down-kick-2, the lower legs are in up motion for most of the recovery. Elapsed time between down-kicks- 1 and 2 may be roughly 20% longer than the time between down-kicks- 2 and 1 (this will vary considerably with style). Down-kick-2 is a direct result of a full body undulation whereas down-kick-1 is solely from hip action. One of the most common and telling bad errors is the premature execution of down-kick-2. Fly-dolphin kick with feet angled back and inwards and toes kept slightly bent. Consistent use of the correct technique is very important. It may be helpful during learning to minimize kicking force and rely even more on smooth undulation. For most swimmers, both kicks finish with the legs straight at the knees and the lower legs immediately bounce back up. (Some advocate not completing the second down kick; this is referred to as the "one kick" stroke.) The legs remain loose at the knees. Up and down lower-leg motion never stops but more force is typically applied on the down motion. Due to the perpetual lower body undulation, the hips automatically retain proper height. You will achieve better form, especially while learning, if you do not allow your feet to break the water surface. Besides full body undulating with the kicks occurring at the right times, the most important thing is to develop is a consistent armstroke through the water to go with a consistent head low breathing motion. Breathe (blow) out during the pull with mouth open before surfacing for the next breath. Breathe every other stroke and do not alter this pattern unless it becomes desirable to breath every stroke. Whether breathing or not, both the head and shoulders are to rise early in the pull. For breathing, the head is lifted as low as possible and quickly goes back to face down. Look more down than ahead when breathing. The breathing stroke is otherwise the same as the non-breathing stroke and the body is directed forwards. The underwater armstroke is critical because it must be consistently good form to maintain an even, non-tiring rhythm. Develop a full motion underwater technique and arm exit-recovery and make it consistent. Excessive force during pull/push is wasteful and may tire the arms. Momentum for recovery should rely on undulation. The arms do not need to enter the water close together. Outsweep with hands and then immediately arc each arm in the proper shape WITH ELBOWS UP and PRESS HANDS (slightly curved fingers dominate initially and eventually palms) TOWARDS BELLY WITH MOST RESISTANCE FROM START TO FINISH. KEEP THE ELBOWS UP DURING PULL. Because the arms are in sync with each other, the acceleration created by the proper bent arm position is particularly dramatic. ELBOWS STAY UP THROUGH END OF PUSH which aids arm exit for recovery. In order to keep the elbows up, butterfly requires less passive assistance from the upper arm muscles than does freestyle. In other words, extra force, or pulling, from the upper arms and shoulders is needed to keep the elbows up. This force will make the pull/push speedier and more effective, and, the shoulders will be better prepared and positioned for the exit part of the recovery. (A popular drill which may help in this regard is the "one-arm" fly drill.) Some swimmers bring the hands together quickly on the pull before getting to the chest and then push back and out. Others user a wider less inward angled pull. When the hands get the closest to each other, throw the arms out into exit-recovery. Do finish early as you would for other strokes. Efficient arm exit is important for not tiring the arms and maintaining speed. Palms face back and up on exit. The arms roll during recovery and elbows finish slightly high (although palms more down with little roll can be easier on shoulders and is ok). Land forward and begin downward undulation with head and shoulders. Land gracefully! Shoulders must reach the same height out of the water for both the breathing and the non-breathing strokes. Forearms and hands are relaxed on recovery and the arms land softly as the head and shoulders dive. The hands enter the water slightly angled for the very short out-and-down-sweep motion. Hands go in with slightly separated thumbs and forefingers touching first and all fingers are slightly separated. The fingers remain separated during the out-and-down-sweep but be sure that all fingers come together for the start of the pull. For most swimmers, there is no pause in arm and hand motion once the water is entered although "glide" techniques are popular, especially for going longer distances and for older swimmers. Gliding requires significantly modified undulation as otherwise the arms must speedily execute the underwater stroke to remain in sync with the undulation. Persevere.