Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Admittedly I haven't read all the posts in this thread so please excuse me if this has already been answered. What is the percentage of scholarships held by foreign swimmers? It's probably fair to say too that these scholarships aren't given away because of some sense of charity. Rather I suspect it is because that particular university sees that foreign swimmer fitting into their programme/team better than anyone else they can get their hands on. I suspect it's win/win as far as the swimmer and university are concerned, not all take on the swimmer's part. Interestingly where I live, in a town of just over 100,000 people their are three professional swim coaches. One each from South Africa, The Netherlands and the USA. All part of the way things are now.

I've said it before...... any foreign athlete is welcome to come over to the US and train on any college team as a walk on and pay their own way. If they want great training and better depth in the programs they face on their own turf, they are more than welcome. DO NOT, however, give one dime of athletic scholarship money to foreign athletes over US talent. And we all know once the money dries up the foreign interest will do the same. Fact is, the ICAA last weekend should've run two sets of point scores. One for the Americans and one for the foreigners. My Texas boys would've moved up considerably. Next year, my Horns are taking it back for the Collegiate Americans ! Face it, this is not the 1970s. The US doesn't own all the events at the Olympics any more. To train foreigners and let them go back and represent their own countries at the Games is a kin to aiding the enemy. Don't be stupid. The Brits, Aussies, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Italians and South Africans can keep and train their athletes using their own programs. They obviously have the talent. Kiwi... don't be naive. The reason foreign athletes are recruited is that the coach has difficulty grabbing the guys he wants domestically and gives up and turns abroad for better talent to save his own job. John Smith

Originally posted by gull80 The fact remains they are receiving a free ride to a state university, which in turn is supported by the taxpayers. Why not award the slot to a deserving nonathlete who is a state resident? Even the largest state universities do not have unlimited enrollment. So you want to eliminate scholarships for out-of-state swimmers too? Actually your logic suggests doing away with out-of-state students altogether. GoodSmith: Why blame the coach for wanting to keep his job? Why not blame the people who would fire him if he doesn't produce a winning team? Why not blame the alumni that donate their money to boost their college's program instead donating to the Olympic program?

Linsay, Why not blame the audience members who support recruitment and financial aid to foreign swimmers instead. John Smith

Peter, In talking about this over the weekend with a fomer Div I coach he again brought up the huge problem of lack of boys swimmers coming up thru the age group ranks here in the US, somethng evil-goodsmith has brought up in prior threads as well. I can see both sides of the debate over foreign swimmers and have fanned the flames from time to time here.....and will again. Although right now USS swimming needs to completely overhaul its recruiment of young boys to our sport, as long as scholorships at colleges are given to foreign swimmers at the expense of a (possibly) less developed US talent I don't think we'll turn things around very quickly. Personally I'd like to see the NCAA impose the same types of restrictions some Euro pro teams do on foreigners, Volleyball for example allows two "foreign" players per team. I say allow fully funded US schools 2 full rides for foreign swimmers, more can attend if they like but would have to pay for themselves or get funding from their own governments (who ultimately benefit from a US education when returning to work in their home countries).

Originally posted by LindsayNB So you want to eliminate scholarships for out-of-state swimmers too? Actually your logic suggests doing away with out-of-state students altogether. Why do you suppose state universities limit the number of out of state students (and charge them higher tuition)? Could it be because they have a responsibility to the taxpayers of the state? Interestingly, eight of the fourteen players on the LSU basketball team are from Louisiana.

Originally posted by Peter Cruise how about this: if this is a really important issue then only American citizens (or legal immigrants, I guess) could score points in the meet. So far there have been two motivations proposed for giving scholarships: 1) reward the children of taxpayers for doing well in high school swimming 2) attract the best swimmers so your team wins meets It seems pretty clear that where scholarships are given to foreign students it is the latter motivation dominating, and if so it is clear that if foreign swimmers couldn't score points they would not be awarded scholarships, so your proposal is basically to eliminate scholarships to foreign students. Your question goes back to whether the NCAAs should be a competition between American colleges, as they are now, or between American students. You can always calculate the results excluding foreign swimmers, but I don't think anyone would give the results very much weight. The idea that it is a question of how to spend taxpayer money was already debunked in the article by the Ohio coach who pointed out that for the most part scholarships don't come out of taxpayer funding. Wrt Paul's argument that men's swimming is suffering from lack of scholarships because so many are going to foreign swimmers, it seems unlikely to me that boys are deciding whether or not to pursue swimming because they expect to be edged out for scholarships by a foreign swimmer. It just doesn't sound like the kind of mindset a potential world class swimmer is going to have.

Originally posted by LindsayNB SWrt Paul's argument that men's swimming is suffering from lack of scholarships because so many are going to foreign swimmers, it seems unlikely to me that boys are deciding whether or not to pursue swimming because they expect to be edged out for scholarships by a foreign swimmer. It just doesn't sound like the kind of mindset a potential world class swimmer is going to have. This is an interesting thought. Let's assume you have an 18 year old graduate who is a Junior National champion his Sr. year of high school. I would argue he is a potential world class swimmer. He gets offers from many Tier 2 schools but really thinks he could grow not going to a Tier 2 school where he is one of the top swimmers, but needs to go to a program where he will race every day those current world class swimmers. He really wants to go there, but loses his scholarship money (which he so desperately needs to afford that college) to an already world class swimmer from another country. He goes on to that Tier 2 school and does pretty well. Not good enough to make an Olympic team but maintains his best times from High School but never really goes to that next level. It is pure speculation to imagine what he could have done at a Tier 1 school, but we know for sure he never got that chance because he lost the money he needed to another already world class athlete from a foreign country. I believe there are literally hundreds of stories like this. It is unfortunate because as this happens, it works like a domino effect. The kid that could have gotten the Tier 2 scholarship moves down, until ultimately very talented athletes are forced out. So in contrast to your argument Lindsay, I do think it does have that effect as you go further and further down the food chain.

I have two things to say about this. 1) My brother-in-law went to ASU. I can't even mention their swimming program to him wihtout him getting very angry. He played baseball there. He gets fund-raising letters allof the tiem about giving to the athletic program. He won't give a diem becasue they have so many foreign students on athletic scholarships inso many sports, not just swimming. He grew up in off-and-on in orphange. With out the scholarship money, he & his brothers wouldn't have been able to go to college. He especially thinks that for any school like ASU or Au to have crew is ridiculous. 2) As I've said before, the former AD at Knox College left to go baqck tyo work for the NCAA. His current job is to make sure that the foreign students coming to the US on scholarships have never been professionals in sports intheir home contries or eslwhere. This is a big issue especially involleyball, soccer and other sports that aren't big time money makers inthe US. I really think that there should be some type of limit to thenumber of scholarships a school can give to foreigners. I think this is why smoe schools like Drury can get so many really good swimmers and gymnasts to go to a twon like Springfield, MO for college!!

Sam, if it is the case that a national champion at the high school level can't get a top level scholarship then I will readily concede there is a problem. But since there are Americans getting scholarships, if the national champions aren't getting them who is and why? needs to go to a program where he will race every day those current world class swimmers. Isn't there a problem if you replace the world class swimmers that he needs to race against with other not yet world class swimmers just like him? In a sport like swimming with so many events and so much event specialization is it realistic to limit a program to, for example, two world class foreign swimmers? Does that mean all the people not swimming the events of those two swimmers are deprived of the opportunity to train with currently world class swimmers resulting in a highly specialized program?