There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Originally posted by thisgirl13
What about the US swimmers that spend time abroad, swimming in places like Australia? Isn't that sort of the same thing?
NO IT'S NOT THE SAME THING. Michael Phelps training for a couple of weeks in AUS is not the same thing. I'm sure that he paid his own way.
I'd like for you to name one member of our national team or even one of our Olympic medalists in years past who trained in a foreign country at a university on a full scholarship...
I think foreign athletes training here on US scholarships is WRONG. If they want to train here then they should either pay for it themselves or become a US citizen. I especially have a problem with the state schools because that means that it's my tax dollars going to support this...
Recruiting foreign athletes is huge in all sports. When I played hockey in college, there were a number of players from Canada and even a couple from Sweden. But no one says anything as long as you are winning games.
I understand the bite about the scholarships going to these athletes, but when it comes to world class athletes, ones who represented their country at the Olympics or Worlds, I think it would be great to have the opportunity to swim with those people. And hopefully it generates more interest in our sport and gets people into the stands.
They are getting their piece of the American pie as my polish ancestors did and it's still difficult for them to be in a completely unfamiliar place.
Originally posted by aquageek
I have no expertise in the area of Russian swimmers in the UK or foreign dishwashers, nor what that has to do with US college scholarships.
You are awfully tough on America, which is the best thing going.
You obviously did not read my post very carefully:I never mentioned a word about russian swimmers in UK, I was talking about Russian coaches working for other nations and you do not have to have any expertise in the dishwashing area(its not like I do) to know that American businesses have it set with cheap illegal mexican labor(and I am not trying to be offensive, it's just reality).I apologize if I came around being tough on America, which I really am not, just trying to stand up for foreigners as myself who came to this country with good intentions.After all you have to admit, America is a melting pot...I agree I kinda deviated from the main discussion but it is related in a way - it all to the question of fair or not fair...So I brought up the whole foreign thing trying to show that foregners coming here are not necessarily eating off "an American plate" and not giving anything back.Think about it this way:by setting the high-level standard of the competition more and more swimmers will try to reach higher goals in their training and match that kinda level.You did not think about the following:maybe America is ranked in swimming that high due to that constant drive for perfection that NCAA dictates its swimmers.We all know from simple training experience, that when you train with someone who is better that you are you try to match him or beat him, it gives you a stimulus to work out harder, maybe you are being negative to something that actually created American supremacy in swimming.
My brother-in-law went to Arizona State on a baseball scholarship. He recently got a donationn request to help the foundation that gives out scholarships. In the letter was mentioned all of the Olympian swimmers who had attended AState. He told me that none were fromthe US. He was furious.
Why not expand the number of scholarships given?
Originally posted by thisgirl13
And Dima, Geek, you guys are way out of line. There was so much argument about keeping on topic with the threads, and now you guys are turning this topic about international students and swimming scholarships into the next Cold War. Go fight on the Republicans' chat room.
I'm a democrat.
BTW - I agreed with all your points. Dima was the one who felt US citizenship is just a piece of paper. Tell that to our troops in Iraq who are fighting for Dima.
My point here is:do not forget how and who built America.If you start thinking anti-foreign you pretty much bash yourself, because America is nothing but a concentration of the entire world, citizenship is just paperwork...
Originally posted by gull80
The Indian physcians who have completed their training and are practicing in the US are usually US citizens. It remains very difficult for foreign medical graduates to stay in this country unless they practice in an underserved area.
I believe public universities receive government funding which is derived from tax revenue. There may be limits on the number of scholarships offered to foreign students.
The term "mexican dishwasher" could be viewed as offensive.
Well, yeah, they could be US citizens, but at some point they were not, they were the same foreigners...And that is exactly what I am talking about.Today you are a foreigner and tomorrow a US citizen.I am sure noone is whining about Lenny Kraizelburg winning olympic medals for USA, although you might be forgetting that he was the same foreigner(immigrated fromSoviet Union) at some point.
ok, GEEK, I will give you examples on how a good specialist can contribute to "a new home" and how by losing that specialist the country he moved from loses too.And I will even use swimming as an example!!!Andrey Vorontsov, one of the most brilliant swim coaches Russia had moved to UK to becomethat country's head coach.Since 2000 his swimmers produced 7 UK records, 3 women relay records, 4 junior records, 2 open water records.His swimmer Robert Francis got silver at 2004 worlds and 2003 Europian championship(both SCM) in 400IM.His swimer Alan Bircher is a frequent marathon medal swimmer...
Then there's Aleksandr Seleznev, another great soviet coach, who played a major role in success of Russian(or then CIS) swimmers in Barcelona in 1992.Well he went on to first become the head coach of the national team of Egypt.Under his command his swimmers won the junior all-African championship and then placed second in the main all-african swimming championship, success never known to Egyptian swimming.His swimmer Tamer Zenhum produced a 22.25 50 m freestyle, second time in the world back then (1995).Then Aleksandr moved from Egypt to become one of Croatia's lead coaches and Tamer Zenhum never matched his result again...While in Croatia under Aleksandr's coaching he had Gordan Kozulj to be world and europian champion in backstroke both SCM and LCM 2000-2001, Ante Mashkovich became the europian champ in 50m back in valencia, etc...
What I am trying to say here, that it's not that those guys did not have a job back home, they were just not offered the same as in other countries where they contributed a lot and by leaving Russia they sure did not contribute to Russian swimming, and they took their families with them, so their money is not going back to Russia to help its economy...And that is the case with most good specialists who leave Russia(to US or not)...
The Indian physcians who have completed their training and are practicing in the US are usually US citizens. It remains very difficult for foreign medical graduates to stay in this country unless they practice in an underserved area.
I believe public universities receive government funding which is derived from tax revenue. There may be limits on the number of scholarships offered to foreign students.
The term "mexican dishwasher" could be viewed as offensive.
Originally posted by aquageek
Tom and I have intellectual differences on this, which is fine, but you are flat wrong in your assertion. The sole reason US companies outsorce to foreign nations (India, China, Russia, Brazil) is the labor cost, not the brain power. We have the brains here. A US resource costs anywhere from 2.5 (India) to 8 times (Russian, China, Brazil) as much as these foreign sources (white collar labor). I deal with this every single day from a funding perspective and I assure you there is no reason other than economics driving this.
And, you are also incorrect that these outsourced folks are contributing solely to the US. It's very lucrative for the home countries, check out India. Countries are lining up to provide cheaper and cheaper labor to realize the vast economic benefits to the home countries economy.
It's also completely off-topic. The notion of outsourcing to cheap labor pools is not the same as foreign swimmers on US scholarships.
Yes, GEEK, it could be off topic, but it is still the question of fair or not fair, which relates to the original topic being fair or not!You cannot draw the perfect line and that is what I am aiming at...
GEEK, talking about our brains here, I am not saying you do not have them here, but a lot of very bright people from Russia came here to work and it is not contributing Russia in any way, moreover it is a hit on a Russian economy, and it is not always labor cost, a lot of those people are paide HUGE!And then, just check out the medical field:how many Indian doctors do you see?Are they paid any less than American ones?I do not think so.Unless you are talking saving on labor cost a-la mexican dishwashers and such there really is not much saving there if you go inot white-collar world ...
