Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

I kind of have to side with Tom on this one! I have a son in HS right now that swims, can't imagine him not being able to go to college because somebody from another country gets his scholarship. If they want to move here permanently and become citizens of the USA and represent us...that's a different story. But, to come here, use our money, coaches and everything else, then go back and represent the country they came from....to me that is way more selfish.

Originally posted by justforfun Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally? What about the US swimmers that spend time abroad, swimming in places like Australia? Isn't that sort of the same thing? And, I thought scholarships, scarce or not, were given to students to attend university based on their swimming ability, among other things. I believe there's something in our Bill of Rights about not withholding financial aid just because a person originates from another country. And of course, they have all the right in the world to represent their home countries, even if they swim/attend school here. For crying out loud, if we want to even the scale, make everything "fair", they should go swim for Great Britian, cuz they're certainly coming out the losers on the international swimming circuit, don't you think? I thought swimming was less selfish, and had a reputation for being better, sportsmanship-wise, than most of the other sports around us. If you really want to make it fair, let's start requiring all international teams to have an equal number of swimmers, and if they don't have enough, we'll start sending our guys over to swim for them, so that the teams even out, and everybody has a chance. We'll also make sure that everyone trains in the US, to make it fair, and all swimming scholarships will be completely eradicated, so nobody can complain that it wasn't fair. How's that for ridiculous? It's never going to be fair all the time, and somebody's always going to complain that our US swimmers got cheated by a foreigner, or some foreigner's going to complain that we are unfair to them. That's the beauty of democracy, kids. Plus, I like Mark Rogan. He's got really nice.....sportsmanship.

Let me try..and I mean TRY to temper my thoughts on this one...! The short and long on my thoughts are simple.... Giving athletic scholarships, which are hard to come by in swimming, to foreign athletes is pretty stupid! Need I say more?

Well, most of the European and Aussie programs are good and don't need to train in the US to be a good swimmer. Its the good third world swimmers who need training in the US or some other first world country, remember back in 1988 when that South America black swimmer beat Blondi in the 100 meter butterfly. Many good latin and Asian swimmers start training in high school in the US since their programs are not that strong. So, I think that western European and Aussie swimmers should train in their own country. I admired Michael Gross who stayed always in Germany instead of training in the US.

Maybe it would be useful to start by figuring out the intended purpose of athletic scholarships and then figure out if giving them to foreign students makes sense. If athletic scholarships are meant to attract top notch athletes to contribute to the school's athletic program then giving them to foreign students makes perfect sense. If you believe that athletic scholarships are purely a charity and that the relationship between school and athlete is all one way with the student getting all the benefits and the school receiving nothing in return, and you also believe that charity is for "your own" first then athletic scholarships should only be awarded to "your own". Probably state schools should only give them to people from that state according to the tax arguments. Of course, you have to wonder why you would have athletic scholarships at all, it would probably make more sense to put the money into academic scholarships.

Why would you assume it's tax dollars at work rather than alumni donations? That is certainly the case at private universities. Moreover, big public universities get big bucks from alumni too . . . And do we oppose foreign aid to alleviate starvation in Africa on the grounds that there's still poverty here in the U.S.??? just asking

Elaine, I'm going to assume that by "taking care of ours first", you mean the admittance of American students to American universities, and that "then helping others" refers to the international students in the universities. As far as taking care of ours, I think we've more than got that covered, thanks to the US citizen or permanent resident-only requirement for the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. That provides our American students with the Pell Grant, SEOG Grant, Stafford Loan, Perkins Loan, PLUS Loan, and Federal Work-Study Program. I'm sure y'all have heard of those. The reason international students are using athletic scholarships to get into American universities is because that's the only way they can pay for it. If you want more Americans to get the scholarships, maybe the government should consider opening the FAFSA to every student. That is, unless you think only Americans are entitled to furthering their education. And for those of you who think international students should become permanent residents if they want to swim for our schools, I want you to think about moving permanently to someplace like, oh, Japan, and leaving your family and friends behind. It's not like they can just pack up their families and bring them here, because you're right, US citizenship isn't just paperwork. And who are you kidding by thinking that international students are only in American universities to swim? Don't be ignorant. I'm pretty sure the three international swimmers at ASU aren't getting Speedo endorsements. But I can tell you they're getting an education. Cuz face it, how many swimmers do you know, American or not, who are swimming their four years of elegibility and then dropping out? THEY AREN'T, although, if you want to talk wasting money, let's talk about the losers I went to school with who attended one big party for three years on the government, and ended up flunking out their junior year, or majoring in pre-law, and then getting rejected by every law school in the country because of their 2.1 GPA. But I guess it's better to have American students wasting American money, than to have non-Americans actually using it, right? Geek, my sincerest apologies for calling you a Republican. :D

Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming Heck, just from my home country Russia an estimated 100000 fine scientists(!!!) are working in the US contributing TONS to America!!!Are Russians whining about it?Well, actually, yes, because it is painfull to see your best to go and improve another country .But should they whine?Heck no!!!If those guys were provided with the living(money) US has to offer they would have never left...So America is using the rest of the world pretty darn well(which I have to admit is very smart!!!), so let's not talk about what's fair and what's not! Tom and I have intellectual differences on this, which is fine, but you are flat wrong in your assertion. The sole reason US companies outsorce to foreign nations (India, China, Russia, Brazil) is the labor cost, not the brain power. We have the brains here. A US resource costs anywhere from 2.5 (India) to 8 times (Russian, China, Brazil) as much as these foreign sources (white collar labor). I deal with this every single day from a funding perspective and I assure you there is no reason other than economics driving this. And, you are also incorrect that these outsourced folks are contributing solely to the US. It's very lucrative for the home countries, check out India. Countries are lining up to provide cheaper and cheaper labor to realize the vast economic benefits to the home countries economy. It's also completely off-topic. The notion of outsourcing to cheap labor pools is not the same as foreign swimmers on US scholarships.

Elaine....Well said....

I'm against non citizens getting the scholarships. It is American money and it should be spent on Americans 1st! It is the same thing as in our personal lives, you take care of your own first, THEN you help others. What person in their right mind would give away their money and let their family starve?