Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Let's take everything everyone said and totally twist and turn it. Is going to college on a full ride awesome? Yes. Is swimming for a D I program, easy? Not really. It's a lot of hard work. Is it great that these kids get to do something they love? Yeah. Ask them all how much they love it when there alarms are going off at 4:30 or they can't go out partying b/c they are too tired or in taper. There are sacrifices made for being a D-I athlete. Is it worth it? I'll bet the vast majority of them would say yes. Is it really equivolent to being a POW, no of course not. But that was said for dramatic effect. I'm really torn on how I feel about foreign citizens getting scholarships. But I also understand that the big time programs (UT, Arizona, Auburn, USC, etc.) have a lot of pressure to win NCAAs and produce Olympians or whatever. It makes a program more prestigious if Olympians train there regardless of what country they swim for. The more prestige a program can gather the more top US athletes it can recruit. There may not be a lot of scholarships offered but how many Brendan Hansens are out there that you can NCAA championships out of four years running AND will stay in the program for four years. Most of the cream of the crop leave at some point (Beard, Peirsol, Sandeno, etc) for endorsements, you bet your butt that they are making more as pro swimmers than they will pay out for their educations. Additionally, it does make the US swimmers better. They are training along side not only some of the best swimmers in the US but also some of the best swimmers in the world. I know there are coaches for various sports that will not recruit foreign atheltes, too.

You are finally getting it. Why do you think people retire from the sport of swimming?......... they get burnt out. I left that type of incredible training regime in 1984. Now I swim for fun.... I grew tired of it the last part of my career. It's beyond work, it's a lifestyle and full commitment. Unless you've put in that kind of yardage year after year, you can never really know how tiring it is. Masters swimming is great. It' not about how FAST you are, it's more about how FAT your are.... :-) And... I do still abuse my old friends about their alma matters having foreigners on their team scoring points at NCAAs........ (a National Collegiate Championship.... not an international collegiate championship). John Smith

I for one am getting sick and tired of this attitude so many have taken since 911 (I guess?)....where people have to take such simple innocent metaphors like comparing sports contests to War so literally.....Please lighten up.....You sound like Jerry Faldwell over there preaching that garbage...So he said the 400 free relay at the Olympics was war.....what's the big deal.....Why do people like you (i.e. geek) then have to remind us what "real war" is all about?....I think we have some idea of the difference between real war and a competitive war such as in a sports setting....GEEZ!....Nobody ever got so wound up before 911 and Iraq about such a simple metaphor.......Enough is Enough already!! Newmastersswimmer

You've obviously been a real tough competitor in the pool in the past. Sounds like you've trained with the "best of the best" and have enjoyed your liesurely sport tremendously.... :-) I commend you on your overall knowledge of competitive collegiate swimming sir. John Smith

Well, Knowing me by now on this discussion board.....I feel an obligation to add my two cents worth here (it's such a lively debate and all!)....only this time it's very brief.....I hate to have to admit this...but I am in 100% agreement with both the Moose Man and the GoodSmith on this one......And GoodSmith is a liberal Democrat too huh?.....What?....Stop it!.....Your ruining that Evil ex UT Swimmer image for me that I was getting so attached to around here! Newmastersswimmer

Actually it is changing...........this fall the NCAA has adopted new guidlines regarding the amount of foreign scholorships........I'll update the details later. As for all the "yelling" and passion on this thread it seems to be completely out of contest as certain folks have tried to steer the issue away from "scholorships for foreign swimmers" to: diversity, immigration, racism, war...............!! Give me a break...........tell me of one US Swimmer on a full ride scholoraship in ANY sport in France? OK, how about Japan? No, well how about Mexico? Egypt? What about Russia? Come on......any sport? I'm for "diversity", I'm pro "legal" immigration, what I am not is happy about any US tax dollars supporting any college sports program that pays the way for a foeighn athelte when there may be even ONE US swimmer who could have it. By the way, for all you idiots talking about politics on this thread and whining about "anti-immigration/anit-foreigner"......tell me of any other country in the world that you can cross into illegally and; work? get health care? education? Fair is fair.........

Aquageek: Train in a top 5 division I school for a few weeks and tell me if you still think sports is a lovely leisure time activity. I can assure you that 14,000+ a day plus weights is closer to a prisoner of war sentence than you might think. For you to say that it would be far fetched for my son to be turned down from his 1st choice school because of a forienger is far fetched represents how little you know about the limited number of scholarships that NCAA mens swimming. It's a joke how few there are available. Let me help you a bit..... simply total the number of foreign athletes at NCAA Div1 championships. That's at least how many scholarships that could have gone to US other citizens. Most of the top NCAA Div. I athletes are on a full ride or something close to it. Try to twist my words... you will not. I never said anything about not letting foriegners go to our schools or crap about "protecting our borders". I said I dont want to better their training and abilities in athletics at our own expense. It's suicidal. John Smith

Lainey writes: "Scholarship money, whether it is academic or athletic, should go to Americans first. If there is money left over, or perhaps as Rob suggested a small percentage of all scholarship money, should be offered to foreign students. Why? What is so magical about being "American?" Other than for those who moved here and were naturalized isn't it just really an accident of birth? Why draw artificail boundaries? Here is an example of how arbitrary and silly it is . . . . In 1920, my dad was born in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. His dad, an American citizen, and child of Norwegian immigrants, moved to Canada to serve in the Canadian Navy to fight in World War I. He did so before America got involved because he thought it was the right thing to do while Wilson pursued an isolationist/pacifist strategy that ultimately failed. So my dad was born Canadian. His family moved to Boston in the late 20's. My dad grew up in the U.S. and then joined the U.S. Navy, fought in WW II and was granted citizenship after fighting in the Pacific as an Aviation Machinist's Mate First Class and serving as a flight engineer on PBYs. So all of this "American's First" rhetoric kind of pisses me off. My dad, as a Canadian citizen, was an all state tackle (both ways) at Boston's Weymouth High in '37 and '38 who was offered a full ride football scholarship to Boston University. He didn't take it as it was the depression and he needed to go to work to help support his family. Then, still as a Canadian citizen, he joined the U.S. Navy and fought in the Pacific theatre to preserve democracy for the world . . . and to defeat despots . . . for the world . . . So who among you thinks that in offering my dad a football scholarship Boston Univeristy was out of line by not serving "American's first?" So think about that before you adopt the knee jerk "american's first" attitude . . . we are all citizens of the world . . . where we live, and the citizenship we enjoy, is for most of us an accident of birth. The real question is "are we making the world a better place?" Are we contributing? I have to think that spending time erecting walls and creating boundaries is wasted. It's tearing them down that makes the world a better place to live. I want to know why citizens of the country that was the primary force in tearing down the Berlin Wall would want to expend energy in building walls within our own boundaries. Reasonable people can disagree . . . regardless, I hope that some find this food for thought, carl

Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming I mean you want to be all fair but close your eyes on America "buying out" the best "brains" in different fields for its own economical growth. ...So America is using the rest of the world pretty darn well(which I have to admit is very smart!!!), so let's not talk about what's fair and what's not!And besides - NCAA would be nothing and would not draw as much attention if you couldn't recruit the best of the best! OK hear is my 2 cents... If we did not have an international representation in the States than the Ivy League in New England/Big Universities would loose a big percentages of the great minds at these institutions. Our swimming program has been awesome for so long that it's a sign of our greatness as a swimming superpower --Russian and China are teaming up to go against the US at the next Olympics... per a swimming article off the USA Swimming web site, and Australia is our major competition after "The Berlin Wall" has gone down in GDR and drugs testing has increased so fast. We are a very rich country and we LOVE that about ourselves --generally speaking that is. It takes a lot courage to go somewhere else to live, go to school, or train. It says a lot about how we are perceived by others and our lifestyle. If non American student athletes are receiving scholarships for American universities that are funded by public dollars then there maybe an argument about that. However, private schools can and usually do, spend scholarship monies on who/how they see fit. There is no problem in my view with this practice. It may not be just about the swimming program, but other (albeit political) reasons not to exclude kids studying their butts off or swimming there butts off to get into an American college or university. Finally, going back to a really simplistic and elementary ideal: Are we all not immigrants and that is the backbone of how this county works?

Aquageek: Look.... you're talking to a raving liberal democrat. Don't even try to preach to me about the goodness of extending the niceties of our economy and lifestyle (including sharing taxes !) with aliens.... or shall I more nicely refer to them as foreigners. As for athletes thanking someone post performance, Hell, I'd be impressed if the South Africans just thanked their American coach on TV to acknowledge their US presence.... no such luck...... it was a pure and righteous South African victory all on there own, based on the talent, facilities and coaching skills of South Africa. The issue isn't about being nice to your fellow international man when you are competing in athletics. That stuff is off the pool deck. Athletics at an NCAA division I level or US Sr. Nationals level is measured ultimately by how much you improve, how you can kick ass, and how close you get to 1st place..... not last place. These qualities don't always square with the goals and priorities of academic life and teh so called sharing of the "American dream". Foreigners are free to attend schools in the US. Don't make my son go to his 2nd best college choice because they ran out of scholarship money because english is a practically a second language in the lockeroom. If we were competing against Mars and Jupiter, I'd invite all the greatest talent in the globe to the US to train and give them lots of scholarship money and general bribery..... Such is not the case. Look.... you go train with your enemies and make them better and better. I'll go train just with the people who will ultimately be on the relay that represents my country. We'll see who fairs best in the end. Oh yeah........ you think sports is a cakewalk? ....... try training in Phelps lane for a few weeks....... let alone try to beat him. John Smith