There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Can I just remind everybody that America is not would it would be today w/out having people from all over.
Have we forgotten how this country was founded?
I sometimes can't stand this America is holy-er than thou routine-kind of sickening.
So odd that by helping other nations improve the educational status by educating a few people you consider this charity. Ultimately, US educated folks worldwide benefits us much more that the few thousand dollars we spend on a 4 year degree. Time to look at the big picture. There are many world leaders and dignitaries educated in the US. If you don't think there's a benefit from that, then you are wrong.
It continues to amaze me that people want to close the doors of this country like we are still in the 1800s. You don't go through a single day without tangible benefits from US education being applied to goods and services produced abroad and consumed here. And, yet, you consider this charity, and not a benefit. We live in a global economy. For us to maintain our supremecy in it we have to be willing to be the most active participant and that includes educating a few folks.
Originally posted by botterud
Why? What is so magical about being "American?" Other than for those who moved here and were naturalized isn't it just really an accident of birth? Why draw artificail boundaries?
I don’t think magic has much to do with being an American, but we are each entitled an opinion.
As for drawing artificial boundaries, while I’ll agree that the border between the US and Canada and the US and Mexico are somewhat arbitrary, they are both pretty well fixed by law. And can we agree that the US’s eastern and western boundaries are more than artificial? But I digress; this thread started out discussing NCAA (the “N” stands for National, which in this case is the United States) and the discussion is taking place on the USMS Discussion Forum (the US stands for United States).
Originally posted by LindsayNB
If athletic scholarships are meant to attract top notch athletes to contribute to the school's athletic program then giving them to foreign students makes perfect sense.
Absolutely! And we should also drop the student from student/athlete, allowing the colleges to recruit these top athletes without worrying about things such as education. Let’s turn our college athletic programs into junior programs for the NBA and NFL. And while you’re at it why don’t we pay these athletes.
But, these are way off the original topic “2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here?” Personally, I see both benefits and detriments, must of which have already been stated numerous times in this thread. One detriment that has yet to be mentioned is the impact of the talent drain in Irish, English and South African national college swimming. What damage is being done to the quality of competition at the FCAA (French College Athletic Association)?
Originally posted by Paul Smith
I'm for "diversity", I'm pro "legal" immigration, what I am not is happy about any US tax dollars supporting any college sports program that pays the way for a foeighn athelte when there may be even ONE US swimmer who could have it.
I'd be interested to know your position on foreign companies who pay US taxes. You seem to forget that many foreign corporations pay plenty of US taxes. US tax dollars does not mean that only US corps are paying the tax dollars.
Education as charity, that's new to me. I guess that means for poorer folks or unemployed folks whose children attend public schools, that is charity also.
Former Member
Frank,
I fully realize that things will not change. I am in no position of clout to make them change either.
I have no objections to foreigners training and competing in the US. My objection is one of cash flow. Sure it's great to have a fast foreigner to workout against to make you and him better at the same time. Bring everyone over if they can afford to come. Fine with me.
What I object to is inducing this behavior with American scholarship money at the expense of the kids that have worked hard and paid a price here in the States.
If the NCAA would get off its butt and give swimming 25 -30 scholarships/team to play with my argument would probably fall to pieces. But thats not going to happen either.
John Smith
Former Member
Swim practice can be gruelling.....and so some people will use metaphors like "prison camp" to describe it since we tend to grab at extremes like that to make colorful comparisons.....My coach growing up would use metaphors like that all of the time.....I understand that there are some horrible and unfortunate circumstances right now for soldiers around the world....I have the utmost respect for the young men and women serving in the military....It's gotta be very tough over there indeed!!!.....Even so, I don't think it is necessary for the general public to then become so hyper-sensitive over these kinda word choices when they have been accepted as o.k. for so many years (in the proper context that they are generally intended to be taken in).....I do understand that people have sensitive feelings however about war in general...especially these days......I think people should think of these sports/war type metaphors more in terms ot the context you yourself mentioned...something on the order of physical training and pushing yourself to beat your competitor.....without taking it as a "literal" comparison between sports competition and the life and death type competition associated to a real war ...thats all. Anyway....lets just leave it at that b/c I don't really want to say anything else about it....I hope you and others haven't taken too much offense to my views on the subject....I apologize to anyone that may have been offended by my remarks.
Newmastersswimmer
Former Member
Dude,
I am very sorry about the horrors of war...don't get me wrong...Its just that sports is war type metaphors use to be fairly commonplace in sports writing and other related mediums....People didn't get so bent out of shape about that before ....even after Vietnam and WWII.....I think people are taking metaphors like that WAY to seriously....I for one just don't see them as being so politically incorrect IMHO.......People need to lighten up a little these days!
Newmastersswimmer
Former Member
One could argue that our society long ago lost any sense of perspective when it comes to sports. So how can we fault our college and universities for recruiting foreign athletes in an effort to assemble championship teams? Personally, I do believe that a state university has a reponsibility to the tax paying citizens of that state (which is why in-state tuition is much lower and there are quotas for out-of-state students). Private institutions are another matter.
