Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Geek: The point you continue to make about educating people from other countries eventually benefitting us in the U.S. is well taken. I agree with almost everthing you say. But, you continue to give examples outside of the topic of giving swimming scholarships to foreign athletes. Perhaps a few of these individuals will receive an excellent education, go home and improve things in some way in their own countries, and eventually this will benefit the U.S. due to improved relations, trade, or some other fashion. Perhaps I'm too cynical in believing that all it really does is take scholarships away from U.S. swimmers and win medals for other countries. What I wish you would respond to is the point that swimming scholarships are extremely scarce in the U.S. I might feel differently if each swimming program had 30 scholarships to give. I have no problem with foreign swimmers attending U.S. universities, getting an education, and competing at NCAA's. I just think that the vast majority (90% or more) of the available swimming scholarships should go to U.S. athletes. I don't think programs like Cal and Arizona should be able to give 1/2, more or less, away to non-U.S. citizens. What do you think?

Just for fun...! Right on all points IMHO.

OK, so it seems that the positive attributes of diversity in a college student body isn't gettting much traction here, so let's try another approach . . . If I'm a college swim coach, my goal is to win conference and win NCAAs. That type of success will provide me with greater job security, improved income, will help draw faster athletes to a winning program and will help attract alumni dollars, which will, in turn, help the program. Soooo . . . . who am I going to give my scholarships to? The fastest swimmers and I don't give a rip where they're from. I'll take an NCAA championship breaststroker from the Ukraine over the guy/girl from Mission Viejo that will finish 8th. Because s/he swims for my U.S. based college s/he will be the National Collegiate Athletic Association champion. There are no citizenship requirements/restrictions to participate in NCAA sports. When s/he particiapates in international meets where team association is determined by citizenship, s/he will represent the Ukraine. The fact that s/he trains and gets an athletic scholarship and good old "United States College" doesn't matter a whit because the goal of teams, whether college, club, or country based, is to win and to have the best and fastest athletes. Now if the goal of United States collegiate swimming was to be a farm/development team for the U.S. National team, then people who would want to deny athletic scholarships to non-citizens might have a point . . . but that is NOT the goal of collegiate swimming is it? I'm just sayin' . . . carl

I doubt the world leaders and dignitaries to whom you refer attended U.S. Universities on swimming scholarships.

Aquageek, you're extending what I said to encompass the entire public education system in the U.S. Don't generalize. I wasn't referring to poor or unemployed people in our country. I'm talking about non-U.S. citizens whose own countries have their own systems for providing education. Yes, presumably foreign swimmers attending U.S. universities on athletic scholarships receive an education here. But, I don't think it's a stretch to say they aren't here for the academics alone. Most of them are here to benefit from U.S. coaches and facilities in order to improve their swimming. For us to support that financially...yes, I consider it charity.

I've read everyone else's posts with great interest. Here are my thoughts... I have no problem with foreign swimmers training in the U.S., with U.S. coaches, and even attending U.S. Universities and competing at NCAA's. I don't believe, however, that we as U.S. citizens should be financially supporting them in these endeavors at the expense of other U.S. swimmers. The way I see it, this support happens in two ways: 1) U.S. tax dollars that support public institutions end up supporting athletic departments and hence, athletic scholarships; 2) other students who pay tuition at these schools (mostly U.S. citizens) end up supporting athletic scholarships for foreigners because tuition is part of the university's budget and makes its way into the athletic budget. It is extremely rare for an athletic department to be completely self-supporting by way of donations and athletic revenue. U.S taxpayers and those paying college tuition have no choice (they are forced) to support these foreign athletes. That's not right. Here are a couple examples. Arizona has a men's roster of 24, 6 of whom are foreigners. That's 25% of the roster! I have no way of knowing who is receiving scholarships, but I think it's a safe assumption that more of the U.S. swimmers are walk-ons than the foreigners...the foreign swimmers wouldn't be there if they hadn't been recruited and put on scholarship? So, they're likely taking up close to 1/2 the athletic scholarships in that program. California-Berkely has a men's roster of 33, 9 of whom are foreigners (if you count Milorad Cavic, whose hometown is listed as Anaheim, CA, but who represents another country in international competition). That's 27% of the roster. Again, they're likely taking up around 1/2 the athletic scholarships. The idealistic solution, as stated by others, is to eliminate athletic scholarships all together. That way, those who simply want an education will still attend. Those who don't, won't. Foreigners who want to come here to train will pay their own way. I understand the arguments about diversity, global economy, helping countries with less developed swimming programs, etc. But, we're not talking about charity here. Charity is voluntary. We're talking about providing opportunity for an education AND athletic competition. It makes no sense to me that U.S. citizens are forced to provide financial support for the training, coaching, etc. for athletes who intend to compete for another country in international competition. I doubt any other country in the world would consider doing this for a U.S. swimmer, unless he/she intended to compete for their country. I would prefer that all tax- and tuition-supported athletic scholarships go to U.S. citizens. As this is probably unrealistic, I would support some cap (perhaps 10%), as Rob suggested. To see the rosters I referred to, check out calbears.collegesports.com/.../cal-m-swim-mtt.html and www.arizonaathletics.com/SportSelect.dbml

Tall Paul, Until your post, this had been, in my view, a pretty spirited and intelligent exchange of ideas. If you think that calling people who disagree with you "idiots" is the way to sway opinion, I might suggest you re-think that tact. Beyond that, the discussion of diversity on college campuses is intrinsic to the debate. To narrow the parameters to "swimming and scholarships" without putting the issue into the broad context . . . . without permitting discussions of the ramifications that flow from policy discussions, does not promote a healthy and intelligent exchange of ideas. Moreover, to assert that "political" discussion has no place here would fundamentally eliminate the ability to engage in this debate which is, in fact, rooted in politics. If the only issue was swimming and scholarship, then citizenship would have nothing to do with the discussion. Money would go to the fastest, period. The premise of this discussion focuses on the notion of citizenship and drawing lines based thereon. Accordingly, politics, civics and cultural issues are part and parcel of the premise that started this discussion. So my suggestion would be to back off of the insults and engage in intelligent debate or sit back and watch until you can do so. carl botterud

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith As for athletes thanking someone post performance, Hell, I'd be impressed if the South Africans just thanked their American coach on TV to acknowledge their US presence.... no such luck...... it was a pure and righteous South African victory all on there own, based on the talent, facilities and coaching skills of South Africa. Actually, in the TV interview with Roland on the CBC he did acknowledge his US coach and stated that he hoped their win would result in better support for swimming in South Africa. Even the member of the team that actually trained in SA talked about the support from his teammates in the US rather than his coach and program at home.

I sure would like some tangible information that shows promising US swimmers aren't going to college because of foreign swimmers. I think it's being blown way out of proportion. As to this notion that US hard earned dollars are being wasted on foreigners, that is short sighted. Private schools can do what they want. Public schools also solicit donations from individuals and corporations not housed in the US. Also, many foreign firms and individuals from foreign countries that are here pay US taxes that support public universities. Colleges and University licensed products are sold worldwide. In the case of my U, those proceeds go directly to scholarships (or used to anyway). It's awfully hard to find a US only dollar anywhere these days.

Originally posted by aquageek Are only swimming scholarships charity? Did you ever see Boris Yeltsin swim? Man, he could really move in the 50 fly. But, Reagan could kick his butt in anything 100 or over:) Originally posted by nkace Can I just remind everybody that America is not would it would be today w/out having people from all over. Have we forgotten how this country was founded? I sometimes can't stand this America is holy-er than thou routine-kind of sickening. And to all you human beings out there have you forgotten where you came from? If it wasn’t for pond scum and swamp gasses billions of years ago the human race would have never been founded! I sometimes can't stand mankind is holier than thou routine-kind of sickening. Are we really that much better then the pond scum?