I was responding to the several posts where people were saying that they know of people who won't go to Nationals because they feel are too slow, won't score points, etc. This would be a way to encourage more participation.
I thought USMS was about encouraging participation. What is the purpose of Nationals, exactly,'Geek? It's sure not about the VERY BEST competing, because most of the very best don't enter!!!! It's about who shows up at any given time on any given day.
I could personally care less what place I get if I do a really good time that I'm happy with. I've won Nationals with crappy times and got 3rd place with a life best time! It really does come down to personal satisfaction. Now, I'm not going to lie and say I don't pick up medals, because I'm looking at dozens right now hanging next to the moose collection (stuffed, not real). I do like the hardware, but it's the times that I remember.
In flights, the points wouldn't have to be the same. The top flight could be more points than the lower flight...
Score 20 places. Score 30 places. Just make sure each place scores fewer points than the person just in front. There's too much sandbagging of times as it is without rewarding people for getting themselves into a lower flight by entering a slower time.
Jerry,
I do not agree (surprise).
My idea for flights was not for teams but for individual events. The flights would encourage more swimmer enthusiasm and buy in to the whole team thing, but I repeat myself.
You're admitting to stacking, which is THE reason why SUPERTEAMS and club teams SHOULD NOT be scord the same. We do not stack at WCM, we try to make relays out of the people who go. If we can make relays great, if not, oh well, we're not going recruiting. That is a fundamental difference in the way the teams are organized. So far as I know there are 2 30-34 women on my team going (and it's not a guarantee either of us can go until the last minute)- Kerry will have to deal with these decisions at the meet, not the weeks and months before recruiting!
Seven categories is worse than 1-10 in men, women, and combined. That's insane. You know people keep citing numbers to prove their points. Let's remember that statistics can be manipulated to say what you want them to say, especially when critical information is "omitted".
I still say 1-10 combined, SUPERTEAM and club (20 banners total)
or 1-3 combined, SUPERTEAM and club (6 banners total)
One problem with this discussion is that the National Championships aren't really championships in the normal sense of the word, they are just a large meet that's open to everyone that is singular only by name and tradition. Not that their format is not appropriate for USMS given its goals, just that it causes a certain degree of confusion in discussion. In the normal sense of the word only the best go to the championships and almost all the best go, neither of these is true in this case.
Trying to create artificial catagories in order to allow slower performances to win awards just leads to arbitrary decisions and contradictions. Why not go with a tested and proven solution like the FINA scoring formulas? Faster swimmers always get higher scores and everyone gets a score. What score you get doesn't depend on who else shows up (except to the extent that that affects how fast you swim). Seems like a perfect fit for USMS.
Karen,
I think we should take this discussion to Pacific LMSC and get an agreement that any championship east of the Mississippi be done as a Pacific SUPERTEAM. That way we cam compete fairly with the NEM's and GSM's, have fun, and be in some good relays. I think it would increase the Pacific representation at these meets. For the 'local' meets we can compete as our regular clubs, WCM vs DAM vs SFM vs MELO vs . . . as we all want, anyway. Lets not tilt at windmills and, instead, concentrate on having a good time. If I weren't an old fogey I would really like to be in a relay of yours (perhaps I can be in one with your coach, instead!)
I am in agreement with Fritz, et. al. that fairness is pretty hard to define. Even in Pacific we have one team that requires attendence at the SCY Pacific championship meet as a requirement to belong to the team, and another that recruits from all over the peninsula. 'Fairness' results in burdensome regulations; there are more important things to worry about.
Hey,
It's Nationals. You get a chance to play tourist-swimmer. You meet some old friends from the opposite end of the country. You get to see some (if not all) of the very best do their thing, and feel a little bit like you belong with them just by getting to warm-up and compete with them.
If you're lucky, you score and get to take home some hardware.
If you're lucky and you've worked hard, you swim a really good time for you and feel like you've really done something that matters.
If you're lucky and creative, you do something really meaningful (like swim a on a relay with your father and your sister) and create a memory that transcends the swimming.
The team competition is for grins, giggles and telling funny stories for years afterwards. In the 1994 SC Nationals, we at San Diego Swim Masters thought we had a real chance to win, since the meet was driving distance (Tempe, AZ) and we had some real superstars like Karlyn Pipes coming to the meet. We even printed up "National Champions" t-shirts ahead of time. Well...Arizona Masters out-organized us, and we had this wonderful Abbott & Costello conversation in the middle of the meet about how we could alter these stupid t-shirts so we could wear them in good conscience. This conversation involved a little beer and a lot of laughter, and to this day, one of my fondest memories of "Buffalo" Bill Earley is his impassioned plea for simply adding "hips" on the end of "Champions."
There is no whining in swimming. We didn't complain about Arizona bending the nonexistant rules a couple of degrees farther than we had. We had a good laugh at our own presumption, and got back to having a good meet.
Get over your dang selves.
Matt
I'm so misunderstood:p
Guys,
I am having a really good time debating this whole issue. I teach 6th graders all day and come home to 3 children under 4 (and a 41 year old!) The whole discussion thing, with adults, is really fun for me, especially when it's about swimming :)
I'm not out to make the world a fair place. It's not, and I don't pretend it ever will be. I was just throwing out possibilities. I'm happy being on Walnut Creek and however our team places, or doesn't, I'm still happy. Would I prefer a CLUB vs. SUPERTEAM category, 1-10 combined at Nationals? Absolutely.
But, as Matt pointed out, Nationals is fun. We had the BEST time at Tempe in 1994, only to be outdone by Florida in 1995 (even when we didn't get points for ANY of our relays). Team Long Island Iced Teas, naked chicken fights (I was in good shape!) in the Atlantic, and dancing literally all night long (after the meet of course)- it didn't get any better than that :) Plus, I swam really well (too many 2nd places, but I was still happy).
Again, I really enjoy the discussions. I'm a pretty happy person and I love it when people like Brian Stack say to me (at the pool the other day) laughing, "Duggan, quit upsetting people on-line!" I just laughed, because it's fun. Not upsetting people, the discussions.
Fritz,
I do agree there is too much sandbagging going on. There is an older female swimmer in the Bay Area, who is a world record holder, that sandbags all the time- it drives me NUTS. I could give you more of her current accomplishments (and they're huge!) but I don't want to make it too easy for you to figure out!
If you look at the way I suggested to divide the flights... it was by number of swimmers, NOT times. I don't know about you, but I have no idea how many people are going to enter which events. That would be a completely "fair" way to do it. There's that "f" word again! So, again, if you had 40 swimmers in the 200 free. You'd divide into two groups of 20... just clarifying, that sandbagging wouldn't really help. Although I guess if I entered 2:00 for the 100 free (instead of 56.8) I'd win the slower flight, huh? I can't see anybody doing that at Nationals. They'd look really stupid. But, hey, I'm frequently wrong :p
Jerry,
I'll be at the ITC. It's great. I've done it most years since I joined Masters in 1993. "The Cantina" is great food. I plan on going Saturday night if I can get a babysitter. My husband works 3- 12.5 hour shifts on the weekend so he can be home during the week with the kids.
See you Friday night?
