Fqs

I've heard coaches argue that the power created by kicking makes a " temporary platform" on which the roll can be created. I don't know if this is true or not. Also, when I've done set where I'm thinking of hip roll, I find that itis almost as if my hips are pushing against the water. I have wondered if the batting or golf swing comparison are really all that accurate because swimmers are in a very different position than either and are pushing and reaching in differnet ways. Some swimmers roll a great deal, some are barely able to get their hips out of the way as their arm passes next them. I have a rather large shoudler roll. also, my hips do roll. Right now I find that I get the best pressure moving backwards if I think of collapsing like condensing a spring my shoulder as I begin to push back. Look at swiim.ee videos. You'll see some swimmers really working fqs. There is a wonderful clip of thorpe doing straight arm recovery. There are clips of him really rollling. Also some good looks at Popov.

It seems like doing a set with a pull-bouy ought to be telling as to the relationship between kicking, hips, and roll.

I am skeptical of the core body rotation being the power source of a solid freestyle stroke. Golf and a batters swing derive power from the hips because the swing is moving in the same direction as the hips. Last time I checked, the freestyle stroke did not involve moving the arms from side to side but rather from front to rear. Body rotation is a valuable tool for two reasons in my book. The first is drag reduction. By rotating your body you MAY move a greater amount of your frontal surface out of the water. By the same token, you have also decreased your surface area in the water which could cause you to sink more. Hmm? The second is to assist you in using a high elbow recovery without having to move your elbow above the plane of your back.

Originally posted by knelson I'm inclined to agree with Doc. I don't think your hips are responsible for power in the pull. One thing hip roatation does do, though, is allow you to reach further out front, thus giving a longer "power zone" for the pull. It's comparable to a powerful punch. When you take a martial art, you learn to throw your whole body into the punch, by rotating from the hip. Without the hip roll, you're just swinging your arm back and forth. When you roll your hips, you're swinging your arm, with the core power behind it, allowing you to swim faster. If you rely solely upon your arms in your stroke, you're going to get tired very fast. There has to be some power source for fast propulsion.

I gave this argument in a different thread: when playing water polo, you can throw the ball farther/harder when you include the core muscles, than if you just use your arm. And you are not in contact with the ground. Or another argument is rope climbing. Theoretically, you could climb with just your arms. (I never could. ;) ) I read that the key to climbing quickly is to get a kind of ab-crunching movement (side-to-side), so more of the heavy lifting is done from the core rather than just the arms.

Here are the basics: When pulling, your muscles, in an indirect way, but through major muscle groups, are pulling on the hips, causing a rotation of the hips. That is, if pulling with the right arm, the hips will rotate counterclockwise, when looking at a swimmer from the rear, and opposite when pulling with the left arm. A good pull will cause more force on the hips, and more rotation. This rotation caused by the strong pull is necessary - the muscles need something to pull against to operate (there are always two ends to a muscle, one end pulls toward the center, the other end pulls in the opposite direction toward the center.) It is possible to swim without rotation, but then you would not be using significant muscle groups that cross from one side of the body to the other (or rather, far from the spine to the spine,) or using muscles to prevent rotation, rather than pulling. The more the hips are pre-rotated the more resistance they will provide to a pull, and the stronger and longer-in-time the pull can occur (before the hips are rotated as far as they can go). So if a pull will naturally cause a counter clockwise rotation, the body should be oriented clockwise. Thus the back and forth rotation while swimming a good stroke. It is a matter of perception, I guess, but I like to think of it as setting up for a strong pull, rather than starting a rotation from the hips, when the pull will cause the rotation anyway. It is impossible to rotate the hips without pulling or pushing on something off of the body's axis, so the idea of starting a rotation from the hips or core is not plausible. Another way to get a strong pull is to have the hips *fixed* in a horizontal plane (or some other plane) by some outside force. Then the pull of the arms would pull against this force, rather than the free to rotate hips, and the net effect is more force. Another way to partially fix the hips is to use the kick as a stabilizer of the hips. When sprinting the hips rotate less than when not sprinting because a rapid six beat kick reduces rotation. A two beat kick serves a somewhat different purpose, aiding rotation to the opposite side before the pull on the other side starts. I do not like the loose terminology used in describing strokes, which emphasis the 'feel' more than what is really being done. A sound basis in Newton's laws is better than the verbal mush provided by much of the swimming community.

Ok, let's get back to basics: what do the motions involved in throwing a ball, etc. have to do with the motions of pulling while swimming? Unless you are talking about throwing a ball from an overhead position down into the ground the mechanics are so different that I don't think they serve as a useful model. Rope climbing seems like a more accurate model for a swimming movement, although less commonly experienced (I haven't climbed a rope in a very long time). It is somewhat flawed as a model because of the magnitude of the forces are much greater than when swimming. Still, it seems to me that the common key is to recruit the relatively large lat muscles instead of relying on the deltoids. I'm not sure how one uses the hips to generate power in either case.

I agree with Phil. Looking at the hip rotation of an elite freestyler and concluding that this must provide the power behind the arm pull is faulty reasoning. It's a lot like observing the low stroke count of Popov or Thorpe and concluding that this is the key to efficient swimming. Which came first? If you're pulling correctly, your hips will rotate. If you're swimming efficiently, your stroke count will be low. The reverse is not necessarily true.

Originally posted by Phil Arcuni I do not like the loose terminology used in describing strokes, which emphasis the 'feel' more than what is really being done. A sound basis in Newton's laws is better than the verbal mush provided by much of the swimming community. I understand what you are saying, but feel :D that is not the whole story. What people think they are doing is often at odds with what they are doing. (Otherwise, having a coach watch you, or videotaping, would not be so useful.) So often you have to describe a sensory (touch) perception, which has a poor scientific language. Put it another way. My dad used to kid me that I should wipe out people playing billiards, because of my knowledge of Newton's laws. But the application of those laws is often much different than the theoretical generalization. ;)

I checked-out the TI book from my local library. I read the entire text and tried to implement the techniques described. Within 10 minutes of hitting my lane, I was totally confused re: head placement, FQ, and a host of other suggestions. I found the book more frustrating than educational. The diagrams were not well labeled and, overall, I was very disappointed. I’m happy I didn’t purchase the book or I’d be selling it on eBay. Of course that’s just my opinion – that and $4.50 will get you a tall cappuccino at your local java hut.