The Fastest Age

Originally posted by Ion Beza .) triathletes don't ...etc etc Amazingly (and I don't say this lightly), even triathletes aren't this obsessive. If you say all these things about triathletes and then complain that "critics" thought You were a triathlete, isn't that telling you something about your stroke?

Originally posted by mattson ... I see lots of triathlete (who have not competed in any meets) who disprove most of the points you listed. ... Sure, give me names and data. San Diego is the land of triathetes who I know and I can give data. Originally posted by mattson ... I also like the double standard, how you claim to know how everyone else trains, and then end your post saying that almost no one knows how you train. You have a miscomprehension here.

Originally posted by MetroSwim ... If you say all these things about triathletes and then complain that "critics" thought You were a triathlete, isn't that telling you something about your stroke? You forgot about the merits. Go back to reading the merits. Many USMS never saw me. Even if they have less technique than me they speak about mine. You, who started at 19, might have less technique than me for example, but still you take a position here on my technique without seeing me. Many USMS just parrot each other. Some USMS who post here saw me briefly not extensively -and here lefty's post about bad techique in races requiring less energy explains my bad technique in meets but also my fast times for a late bloomer- and I spoke about the merits.

And you, conversly, don't really know triathletes. Originally posted by Ion Beza ... .) triathletes don't kick, they don't work on their kick flexibility like me; Ultimately, this is why you are forever limited by your %VO2 Max, no matter how much you improve it. As has been stated here before, as we age past the mid-30's, our VO2 Max generally decreases. By trying to work a distance event with a strong kick, you are committing to an overall career of declining performances. Greater efforts, lesser returns. Best thing you could do would be to embrace, practice and burn into your muscle memory balance, skating, flow and all the TI stuff you dismiss so readily. Experienced triathletes don't kick because they are wearing wetsuits, which buoy their hips (and overcome poor balance), and because they are saving their legs for the bike and run. So please, by all means, continue to work harder and train overdistance. Your competition will thank you for it. Your AGE GROUP competition that is. As you are all-too aware, USMS doesn't recognize "late starters", triathletes, guys who wear the new speedo suit or anything else other than age and gender for awards and rankings.

(I think that I am faster than over 90% of the Masters Swimmers in U.S.) Ion in my league at our championships last year, you would of only been faster then 78% of the swimmers in the 1000 and 76% in the 100. That includes swimming against 70 and 80 year olds.

I am not saying little 10 year olds cannot get decent times, I am saying that the ones that were pointed out doing 26's are probably large for their age. I also said that probably 99% of the really, really fast ones were large for their age. I have seen the little scrawny fast ones doing amazing things, but after timing at state meets where most of the 10 year old boys and girls that were in finals were bigger than me, it does seem that at a younger age, size is a factor. Especially in freestyle. In fly and ***, the lighter weight youngster does seem to excel if they have good technique. Amanda Beard was very fast in 96 and has trouble matching those times because she got a lot bigger. Although I also know some very very large breaststrokers also. Also, the 10 year olds doing 26's would not be doing 26's unless they had decent technique and decent training and decent coaching. Over time it does even out, and the ones who put the training and technique time in do reap the benefits. This thread has so many directions in it, it is actually quite funny. What is the record length to a thread. Does the software have a limit on pages? Let's try to test it out and see!

Originally posted by mattson Lefty, in the same way I can find your comment "just stupid". Let's say we have two 50 year olds. The first started swimming at age 30, and has been swimming to the present. The second swam for four years in high school, stopped swimming, and only started again last year. Are you saying that the first person, with twenty years of swimming experience, is at a disadvantage compared to the person who only swam 5 years (total)? Sorry Mark, I thought my question was clearer. Let me restate: Two masters swimmers approximately the same age, who have been swimming master for the past 10 years. One of the swimmers swam in his/her youth. Does the youth swimmer not have an advantage? I will take the "stupid" part out of the question, I really am not interested in the personal attacks, but I must admit that I am floored that people do not understand Ion's position. Now his approach, well that is up to debate, but for the record it does not bother me because it really has no baring or place on anything. And also for the record, I don't know the answer to your question, you are adding another variable to my question and it is difficult to answer.

Originally posted by SWinkleblech Ion in my league at our championships last year, you would of only been faster then 78% of the swimmers in the 1000 and 76% in the 100. That includes swimming against 70 and 80 year olds. The masters swimmers who compete at meets are as a whole faster than the ones who do not. So in fact your post supports his irrelevent argument.

If you take two 50 year old Masters swimmers of same natural starting ability, but one who swam as an age grouper, one who started as an adult, I think the age group swimmer probably would have an advantage, but not because of some VO2 theory. I think children learn things easier than an adult. They seem to have a natural feel for the water. Add to that that age group swimming incorporates a whole bunch of technique work at an early age. As adults, we want to get to the meat of the work-out. Every Masters practice I have been at, people usually groan if they have to do a lot of drill practice. Adults just want to swim, not do the slow and sometimes tedious work of the technique. (this includes me, hah) So these two swimmers of similiar age and similiar natural ability probably will not swim the same because the former age grouper through the process of being trained in technique as a child has formed good muscle memory. Now if you take the adult swimmer and make them go through the same drill and technique process that an age grouper goes through from age 5-12, then maybe by age 60 they could even out.

Originally posted by Paul Smith OK, I'll come back into the "dog park" and lift my leg....... Ion, I hope you can find a more zen like relationship to your training. Swimming is a beautiful thing, much of that beauty has little to do with speed or fitness but rather with how you interact with water. My biggest thrill is simple gliding, whether thats off a turn, a start, or on a dive at 100 feet. Find that "feel/balance" and you'll find a whole new experience in the sport you love so much! Paul, I think you are really on to something here, I agree with you 100%. Speed is a result of effecient interactions with the water. IF you fight with the water you lose every time! Ion, from two credentialed swimmers (with defference given to Paul) if you haven't already done so, perhaps you could consider adding more drill and technique work to your workouts and really spend a lot of mental energy working on your feel of the water. Do your drills at 3/4 normal speed, do your drills at 5/4 normal speed - how does it feel different? Concentrate on how the water feels on the palm of your hand. Turn your hands a few degrees on the in sweep - what effect does that have? These are the kind of things I used to do - when I was much faster! - and I recommend them to any and everyone.