This may seem like a radical suggestion...or incredibly simple minded. Nonetheless, here's the concent: So much of our workout time, particularly on "distance sets" days, is concentrated on freestyle sets that I'd say our total weekly yardage is probably close to 85 percent or higher freestyle. (I would also venture a guess that this is a not uncommon scenario for many masters teams around the country.)
I know this emphasis on freestyle helps freestyle performance in meets, and I think lots of swimmers--myself included--have always reflexively assumed that if you're in decent freestyle shape, you can swim other strokes reasonably fast, as well; that aerobic and anaerobic conditioning for freestyle translates directly to, say, backstroke or butterfly conditioning.
But I also know that running doesn't particularly help swimming performance, because the muscles used are too sports specific, and you have to train the specific muscle you're going to use in a race. So I started to think maybe we should be doing "distance" sets in different strokes, particularly if any of us wanted to swim faster 200s (and the 400 IM).
As the "player coach" for our little team here in western pa, I've had us start doing distance stroke sets--for example, we did a 1000 backstroke, followed by 5 x 200 backstroke, on Monday.
We've only been doing this for 3-4 weeks now, but it's already made a difference, at least for me. I lowered my lifetime best in the 100 back last week (I'm a very mediocre backstroker) by almost a second--down to 1.02.6. (If I only knew how to do a backstroke start!)
Anyhow:
1) how many of you out there do distance sets of non freestyle?
2) do any of you have any data on stroke specific training, i.e., is it just a coincidence or does it really help to better times in these events?
3) assuming you're in pretty good freestyle shape, does shifting to training more backstroke or other non-freestyle stroke cause you to start deconditioning in freestyle?
Thanks for any advice or comments; I am hoping to shift topics somewhat from the last thread I began...
Hey, this reminds me that in 1999-2000 I trained for Indy for an attempt to get Fred's 400 IM Nat'l record, missed it, but got the 1650 and 500 free records instead.
Until this thread, it hadn't even dawned on me why I went so fast 'cause I did relatively little distance training during that period.
We train alternating strokes by weeks along with significant IM training during the year and I'm convinced. In fact, it's rare we swim longer than a straight 300 free. We might do 10 of 'em, hard, but that's a different forum.
Jim
To all my fellow posters on this topic:
Thanks very much for your considered and considerable insights into this subject. Frank, I took the liberty of forwarding your reply to my teammates--I think this will encourage them to give some thought to the benefits of non-freestyle during our practices (this even for the non-competitive fitness swimmers.)
Anyhow, I am continuously impressed by the level of intelligence this forum is so frequently capable of--and the advice on any aspect of swimming seems to me outstanding. One thing I am particularly impressed by is how people will exemplify their opinions with specific examples. When there is no readily available data, there is also frequently an acknowledgement of this fact, too. No one pretends to have the final, definitive word--and this, I think, is also a tribute to the good nature and wisdom of my fellow posters.
Here is what I personally will take away from this thread:
1. If you want to get good at a specific stroke, it's important to practice this stroke
2. there is probably some cross over effect from one stroke to another, so training backstroke might actually help one's freestyles performance (provided you don't completely drop practicing freestyle)
3. swimming the various strokes regularly, as opposed to just freestyle, will probably make you a stronger overall swimmer; improve your race times in the nonfreestyle strokes; remedy muscle imbalances and possibly give you some extra trained muscles fibers that you can call upon when your conventional freestyle muscles start dying in a race; and finally, as indicated by the 400 IM practice sets Frank mentioned, swimming non-freestyle might actually help distance freestyle race performance (probably because of an accumulation of the aforementioned factors.)
4. none of the above has been proven by swimming scientists, at least that we know of, however, it sounds intuitively plausible. At worst, it's most likely akin to chicken soup for a cold--it won't hurt you!
5. Finally, there are so many factors which go into the physical and mental side of swim training. For many people, doing other strokes in practice will prove a powerful antidote to monotony--not to mention a remedy for overtraining. (As butterflybeer mentioned, I find that by this point in the season, having done primarily freestyle for months, that a switch to more backstroke, etc. allows me to work harder with less fatigue in practice. Maybe my freestyle muscles are a bit overtrained at this point?)
Anyhow, thanks again. Now, if someone could just provide advice on how to do a backstroke start before our next meet March 7th...
Jim thanks for the reply. Your right about there being no scientific data out there to prove this but there are a lot of coaches and swimmers that claim improvement by it. As a swimmer I can tell you that I feel the effects of IM and non prmary stroke training and it makes me a better skilled and conditioned swimmer for my distance free. You keep mentioning the backstroke and not the IM so that seems to be your primary stroke after free. I have seen you do the fly and that is the one stroke that most people have to be careful of especially masters swimmers because of injury and recovery periods for the next pactice session. Also remember technique really counts while swimming and it can fall apart especially in fly when tired and fatigued. Also remember that everyone has different skills and different abilities when swimmming the competitive strokes.
An observation I have made is that breaststoke and then fly are the hardest strokes followed by backstroke. Now I am bias of course because back is my primary stroke along with distance free. Up until 15 years ago I would have said fly but there as been so many changes in breastroke in the last 15 to 20 years that it make it the hardest. I learned to swim breastroke watching Ron Clark, Chet Jastremski, and Bill Mulliken and the stroke has changed so mush especially with the wave action that they have which was evident when Mike Barrowman swam. Since the late 60's back has not changed that much except the starts, turns, and streamlining of the walls underwater. The actual surface swimming has not changed that much.
I am kind of familar with some of the workouts that you do because 2 years ago you posted some here done with Bill White and I also remember that you were a sprinter to middle distance back then. In last 2 years I seen improvement in your middle distance to distance times and on this website I saw your improvement in the 1 hour swim. So are you doing more distance free training then back then? And if you are, do you feel the effects in recovery? Does it get boring? Do your swimmers that swim with you not like it? I think your going in the right direction introducing stroke and IM work in your routine.
Now I have a set for you. Almost 2 weeks ago on Sunday February 15 I went to the pool for a swim and hardly anyone was there. They had a college meet and all of the lane lines were in the pool and I had a lane to myself and had time to do whatever I wanted. With another person I did a warm up of about 600 choice. Then I did 3X400 IM - 8:00 4X300 IM - 6:00 6X200 IM - 4:00 12X100 IM - 2:00 for a total of a 4800 yard set. The emphasis that I was thinking about was the best race effort I could have with recovery to do the next repeat better. Try to decend but at least don't die while doing this and if your body is telling you to do these evenly then do that.
As each set was done it felt easier to do the next because your swimming 1 less 25 of each stroke. The whole point is to recover enough to do the next swim as fast and as good as you can without stroke flaws and really work technique for all 4 strokes and make sure your turns and finishes on the transitions from stroke to stroke are good and legal. Really hit those turns and think of the streamline pushoffs. After the IM work do a nice warm down preferably 300 but get your body in a relaxed zone before you leave the pool. The next day or day after the recovery of your body will tell you what type of shape and conditioning your in and I think it will help your distance free.
I'll often do a main long set of a stroke other than freestyle, eg
10-20x100 breastroke or backstroke
A long fly set for me is
20x25
I am a breaststroker.
The main issue for me is not so much training the endurance of the particular muscles/motions of those strokes as it is working the timing and technique of those strokes. There is time in a long set to work on body position, rotation, and timing. My heart doesn't care what the body is doing, and many of the swimming muscles used are the same for all the strokes.
A fun set I like to mix free and backstroke is,
5x100 free
100 back
4x100 free
100 back
...
100 free
100 back
All on the same interval, holding the same speed for free and backstroke.
For 400 IM training I like 300s 100 bk, 100 br, 100 fr. Fly is just too hard for me to do too much without the stroke breaking down.
Swim fast,
Greg
Wow, this is a great thead.
Our little masters team, the El Segundo slugs, have won several National champ small team titles. I believe it is because we swim a lot of variety, all strokes, lots of drills, always the latest stroke techniques.
Still as a breaststroker there is toomuch freestyle for me. I have a very bad right shoulder that should have surgery on it. I refuse to let any doc do it other than the doc on Star Trek.
I do many sets creatively, breaststroke while others are doing free. But there are times I know I have to swim free, or back or fly. So every 100 becomes 4 x 25, every 200 becomes 8 x 25 etc. I swim one arm butterfly a lot, back and *** does not hurt the shoulder.
The biggest thing I have noticed is the HUGE improvements in the triathletes who are made to to other strokes. When they listen to the coaches their free gets so much faster. I watched one for from a 31 fifty to 26.8 fifty free. That was huge.
I am in a somewhat unusual situation, because, while I've been doing freestyle and backstroke for several decades, I didn't do my first lap of breaststroke until March of 2000. In spite of the fact that I had been regularly swimming freestyle and backstroke for a long time, I still got sore muscles when I started practicing the arm stroke for breaststroke. And I still sometimes get sore leg muscles (particularly the muscles that pull my legs together at the end of a breaststroke kick).
The point is that doing the other three strokes hadn't developed some of the muscles I use in breaststroke. It has taken actual breaststroke swimming to do that.
I agree with Wayne, different strokes are the way to go rather than freestyle all the time. Most of my aerobic sets are free or ***. I also do fly and back. Today, I notice a little pain in the knee and I cutdown on the ***. I do workouts usually at 600 to 900 *** and have done over a 1,000 *** in a workout.
