TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...
Former Member
I am teaching a stroke clinic class at the YMCA. My background is USS competitive swimming (ages 8-18) and some age-group coaching. One of my students, a triathlon trainer, has been to Total Immersion. Because of his TI training, he is doubtful of any stroke correction I am giving him. Basically he has the typical problems of a short stroke...entering too close to the head and not pulling thru.
The TI triathlete is telling me that the TI "Fish" style swimming technique says the hand should enter the water just in front of the head, then reach forward. In my opinion, he needs to lengthen his stroke, rotating and reaching as far forward as possible, entering out front (not by the head). I am thinking he is mixing up some TI drill with proper freestyle SWIMMING technique. He at least agreed with me when we talked distance per stroke (and started believing I know something about swimming)...but I don't see how you can maximize DPS with hand entry by the head.
Can someone shed light on this for me? What is this "Fish" swimming in a couple sentences? And where does TI say the hand entry should be?
Thank you!!
P.S. I'm new here and enjoying reading...I swim masters and hope to compete in butterfly someday...I'm waiting it out until I get a bit older so can face the competition. My butterfly has held out better than my other strokes (used to be a long distance freestyler too).
P.P.S. I did a search on TI and read some of the posts but they didn't quite get to my specific question above.
Parents
Former Member
Originally posted by mattson
...
If so, it doesn't matter (for stroke length) where the hand enters the water, especially if you are continuing to glide the hand forward after entry.
...
What is debatable here, is whether stretching the arm underwater does introduce an unnecessary resistence from the water opposing the arm.
Terry says it is a negligible resistence compared to the whole body.
I was told by a coach last year before the 2002 Long Course Nationals, to shorten my stroke above the water, to enter the hand angled downwards (not forward) into the water, then to extend my arm fully underwater before starting the catch and pull.
I got back to my ways since.
I feel better and swim faster meets in 2003 than in 2002.
In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin states:
"The swimmer's timing and balance in the water are very personal aspects,...,and any attempted correction may upset a swimmer's natural rhythm.".
Originally posted by mattson
...
As far as rotary vs front-quadrant, I was just looking at some of the drawings in Colwin's book (pg 43, Swimming Dynamics).
...
The drawings are *clearly* front-quadrant. However, at the only moment where you can see both arms (as the hand leaves the water), the arms are opposite ("rotary").
...
The book Swimming Dynamics by Cecil Colwin dates from 1999.
In page 43, the drawing on the top of the page (fig. 1), shows a spacing between the two arms of less than 90 degreees.
The arms overlap there, T.I. style.
The 'Australian crawl' of rotary, straight arms, is not mainstream.
In 2003, four years after 1999, In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin -who is a student of the sport-, has 'Overlapping and Rotary Strokes', with drawings in fig. 5A. of the overlapping stroke, and in fig. 5B. of the rotary stroke that show contrasts.
In rotary stroke, the arms are spaced by at least 90 degrees, and by as much as 180 degrees apart.
Originally posted by mattson
...
If you are watching the conventional TV coverage of swim races, how can you tell what these high caliber swimmers are doing?
...
My knowledge of who swims what, comes from watching videos (like Inge de Bruijn's), TV races, seeing some competitors in real life (like Chris Fydler (Aus.), who I mentioned above), and mainly reading articles.
Swimnews magazine from May 1998, under 'Preparation For Sprint Events: You Cannot Dive Twice Into The Same Water', has Gennadi Touretski, coach of Klim and Popov at that time (and now coach of Popov), stating:
"Immediately after the 1996 Olympic Games, Michael' Klim's technique was modified to incorporate the old-fashioned straight-arm recovery. The longer recovery seems to lenghten the stroke."
In the 2000 Olympics, when Klim got the world record in 100 meter free as a lead off of the 4x100 free relay, and later on #4 in the 100 meter free finals (close behind #1 Hoogenband (Ned.), #2 Popov (Rus.) -a rotary free, himself-, and #3 Hall (U.S.)), he used a loud and clear rotary straight-arm crawl.
Originally posted by mattson
...
If so, it doesn't matter (for stroke length) where the hand enters the water, especially if you are continuing to glide the hand forward after entry.
...
What is debatable here, is whether stretching the arm underwater does introduce an unnecessary resistence from the water opposing the arm.
Terry says it is a negligible resistence compared to the whole body.
I was told by a coach last year before the 2002 Long Course Nationals, to shorten my stroke above the water, to enter the hand angled downwards (not forward) into the water, then to extend my arm fully underwater before starting the catch and pull.
I got back to my ways since.
I feel better and swim faster meets in 2003 than in 2002.
In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin states:
"The swimmer's timing and balance in the water are very personal aspects,...,and any attempted correction may upset a swimmer's natural rhythm.".
Originally posted by mattson
...
As far as rotary vs front-quadrant, I was just looking at some of the drawings in Colwin's book (pg 43, Swimming Dynamics).
...
The drawings are *clearly* front-quadrant. However, at the only moment where you can see both arms (as the hand leaves the water), the arms are opposite ("rotary").
...
The book Swimming Dynamics by Cecil Colwin dates from 1999.
In page 43, the drawing on the top of the page (fig. 1), shows a spacing between the two arms of less than 90 degreees.
The arms overlap there, T.I. style.
The 'Australian crawl' of rotary, straight arms, is not mainstream.
In 2003, four years after 1999, In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin -who is a student of the sport-, has 'Overlapping and Rotary Strokes', with drawings in fig. 5A. of the overlapping stroke, and in fig. 5B. of the rotary stroke that show contrasts.
In rotary stroke, the arms are spaced by at least 90 degrees, and by as much as 180 degrees apart.
Originally posted by mattson
...
If you are watching the conventional TV coverage of swim races, how can you tell what these high caliber swimmers are doing?
...
My knowledge of who swims what, comes from watching videos (like Inge de Bruijn's), TV races, seeing some competitors in real life (like Chris Fydler (Aus.), who I mentioned above), and mainly reading articles.
Swimnews magazine from May 1998, under 'Preparation For Sprint Events: You Cannot Dive Twice Into The Same Water', has Gennadi Touretski, coach of Klim and Popov at that time (and now coach of Popov), stating:
"Immediately after the 1996 Olympic Games, Michael' Klim's technique was modified to incorporate the old-fashioned straight-arm recovery. The longer recovery seems to lenghten the stroke."
In the 2000 Olympics, when Klim got the world record in 100 meter free as a lead off of the 4x100 free relay, and later on #4 in the 100 meter free finals (close behind #1 Hoogenband (Ned.), #2 Popov (Rus.) -a rotary free, himself-, and #3 Hall (U.S.)), he used a loud and clear rotary straight-arm crawl.
